FT-8800 Crossband Solution?

[Currahee]

One thing I had in mind when I selected my Yaesu FT-8800 over the FT-7800 was the possibility of using it as a mobile crossband repeater with a dual band HT.

Just about the time I got the nerve to try it, a friend of mine got written up by an Official Observer for doing just want I planned to do. The O.O. said his setup (on an Alinco, BTW) lacked a key-down timer, a remote control shut-down mechanism, and an automatic repeater id message.

I think I can manage a way to shut down if someone starts cussing--and most of the problems go away if I only only repeat the signals from my HT using tones and flipping the offset backwards.

Has anyone come up with a way to make an 8800 ID? --or accept input from an external id board? It almost sounds simpler to get two cheap commercial radios and controller board and make a legal Xband repeater from scratch!

Such a shame to have a nice feature and not be able to use it!

73,

Currahee

 

[Moleculo]

Oh Please...was the Op who got written up just using it within range of the parking lot or camp-site (whatever) so he could just walk over there and shut it off if it malfunctioned?

Just because an "official observer" wrote you up doesn't mean you're violating any rules...that's the FCC's job to figure out. He's not an "official enforcer".

I use cross-band repeat all the time at my house. I have it set up so that it has about a 6 block (if that) radius. I have yet to have one problem that caused me to need all that stuff that a regular repeater needs. Everyone I talk to on the radio knows I'm doing it. I even say so on the air.

If you're planning on using it like a remote base where you're not close enough to just walk over and shut it off, then you probably need all that other stuff. Otherwise just use the function for what it was intended for.

 

[SR385]

Full duplex crossband is where you get 'issues' as when your crossband is transmitting out TO you, it isn't IDng itself.

The fully legal way is to half-duplex

you -> input on xband rig -> input of a repeater... receive the output of the repeater on your handheld.

That way all the transmissions of your crossband are IDd by you during transmissions.

The notice is actually correct....though you are far from the only one doing this. Just please please please pick your inputs carefully so you don't use a link frequency of another repeater or use the output of a repeater as your input.

That's the kind of mistake that will get you immediate attention.

 

[Currahee]

He was demonstrating X-band to a ham group at a restaurant to his vehicle in the parking lot. I thought the O.O. was stretching a bit to nail him like he did. I have just been wondering what you would have to be absolutely, positively legal!

The FT-8800 is a great radio. I really like being able to monitor two frequencies simultaneously, using the dual receiver circuit.

 

[Currahee]

I had kinda decided that half-duplex, if that is the correct term of it, would be the best way to go. I have a Yaesu HT that can be programmed to receive on VHF and transmit on UHF, or vice versa. I figure if I am a short walk from the vehicle, I have the repeater control issued under control. I'd ID with "<my call> crossband repeater" verbally, and everybody should be happy.

 

[Moleculo]

If you can walk over to the crossband rig to turn it off, then you have control of it. If you give you're giving your callsign out at appropriate intervals then your ID is being given on every frequency that your radios are operating on. Just turn the crossband rig off when you're done with it and it won't be transmitting when you're not there.

Oh, and can someone please tell me where in the regs it says that a personal auxilliary or repeater station must have a key-down timer, a remote control shut-down mechanism, and an automatic repeater id message? Maybe it's there and I just don't know where?

 

[SR385]

If you can walk over to the crossband rig to turn it off, then you have control of it. If you give you're giving your callsign out at appropriate intervals then your ID is being given on every frequency that your radios are operating on. Just turn the crossband rig off when you're done with it and it won't be transmitting when you're not there.

Oh, and can someone please tell me where in the regs it says that a personal auxilliary or repeater station must have a key-down timer, a remote control shut-down mechanism, and an automatic repeater id message? Maybe it's there and I just don't know where?

O.k. if you are doing full duplex crossband, it looks like this

you -> input frequency to your mobile -> output on the input of the repeater

repeater -> output frequency picked up by your mobile -> mobile outputs to the output you configured for your duplex on receive

The problem is your mobile when it is relaying the repeater back to you, isn't identifying. When you transmit in, you are ID'ng for you on the repeater, but the repeater outputs on your duplex channel are not IDd and that's the issue. It's an unidentified transmission the whole time it's running.

Not sure what part of the FCC regs covers repeater ops offhand, but you are required to have a means of remote shut-down and recently they now require that you cannot solely use an input RF channel to do this. (This does refer to full time repeaters or unattended operation more accurately.)

You must have an 'out of band' alternative, a link control on another band or a telephone line you can dial in with.

This is so that if the equipment malfunctions you can stop the interference on the band remotely.

Also, due to issues with jammers tying up RF control links, that's why they added the additional stipulations.

The key-down timer, I'm not sure of. Most repeaters have a 3 minute or shorter time out timer, but I'm not sure if that is for best practices or if it is also required.

A LOT of problems occur in the NJ/NY metro area with people not understanding their gear or the band plans when they pick frequencies for personal link setups.

Problems range from people using outputs of existing repeaters as their input, creating unidentified loops between repeater networks.

People setting up 'full time' rogue repeaters that interfere with coordinated pairs.

People setting up repeaters on simplex frequencies or OSCAR sub-band frequencies.

People setting up inputs or outputs that interfere with RF link channels....the list goes on and on.

If you are anywhere near a metro area, you *must* have a full understanding of what you are doing before you bring a linked setup on the air. It's well beyond reading the manual and enabling the feature on a radio.

There is pretty aggressive enforcement with guys using commercial communications quality DF equipment to hunt sources of interference around here and people get cited fairly frequently. A lot of the repeater coordinators and control ops work in the communications field and have access to crazy amounts of high-end instrumentation so it's simple for them to track people down.

 

[Moleculo]

The problem is your mobile when it is relaying the repeater back to you, isn't identifying.​

Maybe I'm missing something here. There's no requirement that the mobile ID back to you on it's TX freq. The FCC requirement is that the Control Op ID on each freq (the regs say "channel") that he is operating on. If my HT is TX on 440, and my crossband repeat mobile repeats it on 2M, when I ID using the HT, it is being TX on both the 440 and 2m frequency. If I do that into a repeater, the same thing is occurring on the output of the repeater. While my crossband rig may not be transmitting my ID on the output from the repeater, the repeater is doing it for me on it's output, evertime I ID! I have fulfilled all requirments to ID on every frequency I am using. The regs don't say that every rig has to ID, only the control OP. If you monitor the TX on each frequency in use, you will hear me verbally ID. Regulations are covered for ID purpose. If the control OP is able to shut it down LOCALLY then the only issue I see is whether or not he is using frequencies that may be coordinated for other use. You don't need the remote shutdown stuff IF YOU ARE NOT REMOTE. If I can walk over to it within a few minutes and shut it off, I have fulfilled all the shutdown requirements. Let's not confuse unatennded repeater operation with the the crossband repeat operation described here.​

 

[W5LZ]

Time-out timers are not required by regulation, as such. Regulations do specify that the -control operator- ID every ten minutes, and if the repeater is not under direct control, that the repeater automatically ID every ten. So, the responsibility lies on the operator doing the talking, don't talk too long, and with the repeaters control operator. If each of those people pay attention and keep time, then there's no requirement for an "automatic" anything. So, the questions are; Is the repeater under control of an operator who is present (or at least very close)?; Does the 'repeater' even have an ID'er?; Can the ones doing the talking keep time?; and the one I think is most important, Can the @#$ 'OO' use just a little common sense in writing people up?
- 'Doc

PS - Almost got the coveted "WAS-OO" award! Still working on HI and AK. Don't think there are any 'OO's in either place...

(Commonly spoken of as the "UP the 'Wazoo'!", award. #1 is still available!)

 

[SR385]

Moleculo, yer still missing it a bit.

If you set up yer mobile to use chan A for input and chan B for output to and from your HT.

When you TX on the HT, you are ID'ng for the transmission on chan A

However when the repeater traffic comes back to you, your mobile is now sending it on chan B, not the repeater output, but the output of YOUR repeater.

If you walk away...another station on the repeater you are linked to transmits...your mobile now relays that out on whatever band you set it up for. It is now an unidentified transmission.

The reason is, on your input, it is only active when you are TXng and you are IDng as you go.

On your output, it is active any time there is traffic on the other system. You aren't IDng on that output frequency you are only heard with ID on the system you are linked to and on your input frequency.

The output of your crossband is still unidentified.

The solution is pretty simple, just set up half-duplex.....or only set up where nobody else will hear it ;-)

It's nitpicking, I agree, but this is what the deal is and why people get all bound up over crossband setups.

If it's still not clear, maybe I can diagram it. Sort of a p.i.t.a. to write it out and make it clear.

 

[Moleculo]

If you set up yer mobile to use chan A for input and chan B for output to and from your HT.
When you TX on the HT, you are ID'ng for the transmission on chan A
However when the repeater traffic comes back to you, your mobile is now sending it on chan B, not the repeater output, but the output of YOUR repeater.

I disagree with you.

Let's use real frequencies for demonstration purposes.

My HT is set to TX and RX on 444.00. The repeater input is on 145.00 input and 146.00 output. That means my crossband repeat rig is set on 444.00 on one band and 145.00/146.00 on the other band. When I key my HT and ID, it will be heard on 444.00. The crossband rig will hear it on 444.00 and tx it on 145.00. Now my ID has been heard on two frequencies I'm using. Then the repeater picks it up on 145.00 and sends it to the output on 146.00. Now my ID is on three frequencies. While I'm keying my HT my crossband repeat rig is busy RX on 144.00 and TX on 145.00 so it cannot also be RX on the repeater output of 146. When someone else talks back to me and IDs, my crossband rig hears 146.00 and sends it back to 444.00. Now their ID was heard on the repeater input of 145.00, the repeater output of 145.00 and my crossband/HT freq of 444.00. The other station I'm talking to has also now ID on all the frequencies they've talked on also. My ID doesn't have to come out of my crossband rig on 146.00 because I have never TX out of it on 146.00. It has, however come out of the repeater on 146.00 which is where it was broadcast from. It really doesn't make any difference, because I have fullfilled the requirement to ID on all frequencies I am using. The rules don't specify which rig has to do the ID'ing.

On your output, it is active any time there is traffic on the other system.

So what. Everyone IDs when they're supposed to and their ID is heard on all the frequencies in use. My id was heard on my output because that's also the same feq my HT is TX on, which I already ID'd on. There's no requirement that IDs are heard on every transmission, only every 10 minutes.

You aren't IDng on that output frequency you are only heard with ID on the system you are linked to and on your input frequency.
The output of your crossband is still unidentified.

NO. The repeater broadcasts my ID on it's ouput, my crossbander broadcasts my ID on both of it's outputs, and my HT broadcasts my ID on it's output. Just because the other stations don't "hear" all the frequencies it's being TX on doesn't mean it's not being TX.

 

[kc9hmw]

why not reverse and id, if you're x-banding into a repeater and using a ht most likely you can't hit the repeater with just the ht. so if you key and id on the repeaters output freq most likely nobody will hear it, but your x-bander will and tx it where previously unidentified.
As far as remote shut off, call the xyl and tell her to turn it off hi hi.

 

[jason9987]

If you are using a Yaesu HT you might be able to use ARTS with auto ID, actually you could probably use it w/o a Yaesu HT just for ID but if you have a HT that supports ARTS than you can also tell if you go out of your CBR's range. I dont know if it will let you leave ARTS on and go into Xband repeat mode, but if it does that would take care of ID from repeater to you for duplex operation. Then as long as you ID when you talk through CBR you shoud be fine. If that doesnt work another choice is use your HT to transmit on repeater out freq and your CBR repeats call to the freq your using. I dont understand why they dont have more xband features on rigs that support it, it could all be added in software and would cost next to nothing for them to add it.

 

[SR385]

The newer firmwares have CWID now which solves the issue I was talking about.

When you full duplex crossband, the transmission of your crossbanding station back to your HT is not identified unless you have an IDer built into the crossbanding radio. They are fixing that now with the newer radios I've recently found out.

The simple fix for the older radios is to half-duplex the crossband, meaning you monitor the repeater output on the HT directly and don't re-transmit the repeater output via your crossband rig.

I think I stated it earlier in the thread or have said it before...just be sure if you crossband that you are using the proper band for your links and the proper frequencies. Waaaayyy too many people around here use 2m links and/or use frequencies allocated to simplex use or already in use as control links for existing repeaters. Some don't use PL enc/dec on their crossband either.

You must use the proper frequencies and by all means, use PL/CTCSS for full enc/dec on the crossband rig. Otherwise you stand to create a lot of interference and confusion.

 

[AE7RS]

Let's use real frequencies for demonstration purposes.​

[snip]

"When someone else talks back to me and IDs, my crossband rig hears 146.00 and sends it back to 444.00. Now their ID was heard on the repeater input of 145.00, the repeater output of 145.00 and my crossband/HT freq of 444.00."​

[snip]

This is the problem area. Only you can legally ID your cross band radio. You are the control operator. Your call sign must be heard per 97.119 (a) on all output frequencies of the cross banded radio.

73,
Rick AE7RS