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new Sirio Tornado review / update

Discussion in 'CB Antennas' started by camaro1, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. camaro1

    camaro1
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    here it is if you don't want to read to 5 pages or so from my imax died thread:

    so I had the maco 5/8 up for about 3 weeks, when I did the initial tuning of it before it went up on the tower it was misting rain out, swr was set very good, put it on the tower and started talking on it, results were good, but I noticed my swr had changed the next couple days when it dried out, so I climbed the tower and got the swr re-set, had to shorten it even more, the antenna was still working fine, but I noticed large swr changes when it was raining/damp out compared to other antenna's

    I also didn't like the fact that after the final tuning the radiator was at less than 19' long, so I had some vaction time the last couple weeks, and had a sirio tornado 5/8 that I had ordered also.

    so I set up the tornado and placed it on the tower that the maco was on, it tuned in very nice with the exact length given in the instructions and 22' long radiator with 4 6' ground planes, also this antenna is not dc shorted to ground/radials, it uses a nice open thick coil at the base. and rain does not seem to be changing the swr much at all

    after using this antenna for the last week and a half I can say it works way better than the maco / imax / and (gainmaster that is tree mounted at 42')

    and the proof:

    my buddy that is around 30 miles from me has a grandson down the road from him that has a small radio set up, old un touched realistic ssb radio with a A99 about 10' off the ground only, on my imax and maco 5/8 I could here his grandson but with only 1 light lit up on my 2950dx, now with the sirio tornado I have him at 3 lights on my 2950 dx



    and the guys that I have made contact with that are 100 miles south from me I have made several contact with and they are coming in with 1 more light than they used too, also with the maco / imax I could always here them talking to another guy on the iowa/Wisconsin border that I could not make out,, now with the sirio tornado I have the guy in iowa that is 130+ miles from me at 3 lights on my 2950dx and made contact with him no problem the last week several times in the evening.
     

  2. Marconi

    Marconi
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    Good report Camaro1.

    I would agree the Imax could likely not be quite as effective with the weaker signals you're reporting. My Imax always shows to be more noisy...even when conditions are really quite.

    Of the other hand however, I don't think the Maco V58, is as easy to get working right as many claim, and maybe an easy to make error in measurements can make that one, in particular, work like a dud. And if we don't make such and error then it works great. I've heard from guys I trust to really know from years of experience that the Maco V58 works great, but I also hear other's claim that is not the case.

    I've never owned or installed a V58, and just reading the manual leaves some question as to the overall length, and exactly where the bottom measurement was taken from. The manual does not give dimensions for the base assembly, so I can't figure out the exact dimensions for the overall radiator length.

    The new manual made by Charles Electronics is better, but similar to the one Maco made, but I still cannot estimate really close to the missing dimensions. The over length suggested for 27 mhz is stated, but if we measure between the wrong two points, we are in for trouble. If you are using an older manual from Maco, all that I say here might not apply.

    Exactly where did you measure the bottom of this antenna and what length did you use...248" as noted for 27 mhz?

    From the instructions I cannot determine the dimensions for the base assembly, or how it comes and if it is pre-assembled in the kit. Can you please help me a little?

    Is the bottom tube element of this antenna preinstalled in the base assembly and does it connect to the rest of the radiator where it is noted in the instructions, NOTE: "Adjust length here?" See the image I posted below.

    Can you give me the length and diameter for the full BA1P, if the tube is included in this assembly as noted in the parts takeoff in the instructions?

    I think the base of this antenna used for the overall length measurement is a hole the C13P clamp that secures the mast you have to provide. This information is noted in the "Note" under the frequency chart list.

    Is this correct?

    Does the base assembly come with the bottom element of this antenna's radiator, and is it fixed and installed inside the black colored Bakelite insulator in the top of the base assembly?

    I sure would appreciate your help with this information noted below, since you have the V58 on the ground. I have always been curious as to really how long the V58's radiator really should be at 27 mhz.

    View attachment V58 dimensions.pdf

    Thanks,
     
  3. Lil'Yeshua

    Lil'Yeshua
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    .......

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    I almost bought the Tornado before I purchased my Vector. Still might.
     
  4. camaro1

    camaro1
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    mine ended up at 231" total length bottom of base to tip,, this was with the mfj259b, and moving the tuning ring connection a little,, ended up with 1.3 to 1.4 in the center of cb band, 1.7 to1.8 at 26.6 and 27.5

    but they would jump up .5 to .7 more when wet,

    so the actuall radiator element was less than 19'

    the sirio tornado swr was perfect with the supplied measurements, and doesnt really change when wet like the maco, and the radiator element is about 22' even from the coil to the tip,,, this antenna is also very quiet for not being dc grounded to the ground plane elements like the maco tuning ring
     
  5. Shockwave

    Shockwave
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    Most of this is logical. The V-58 has a capacitor at the base and that makes it tune physically shorter with a slightly smaller capture area. If you use an ohm meter across the coax connector of the Tornado, you'll see it's still DC shorted through the heavy coil just like the others for lightning protection and to prevent static buildup.

    With respect to the comparison of the Tornado against the Gain-Master, I have to respectfully say your result is not typical. I'm not saying what you're reporting is wrong or questioning your honesty, just saying the result is not typical.

    Why your GM is not outperforming the 5/8 wave end fed with short radials could be one of many reasons. Most likely are conditions over a 100 mile path vary from hour to hour and day to day. The tree may be effecting the antenna if the base is surrounded by foliage. The coax loss to the antenna in the tree may be higher.
     
  6. camaro1

    camaro1
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    I do understand the gainmaster is not mounted optimal and is 10-12' lower than my tower mounted antenna,, it is just being used for a 2nd / backup antenna,, also the sirio tornado is not dc grounded at all I did check it with an ohm meter and also there is no place that the coil makes contact with the ground/radial portion of the antenna,, the connector is open circuit

    even checked again at the coax connector at the base of the tower, and the center lead to the shield is open circuit,, the gainmaster connector is dc shorted
     
  7. camaro1

    camaro1
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    From BOB85:

    NEWS JUST IN :shock:
    the tornado is not as it seems in the pic,
    i used to own one years back and could have sworn it was like other 5/8 using tapped transformer at the base and 1/8wave radials but it aint,
    i talked to a ham buddy tonight who is going to use one modded for the 6mtr shootout, while talking about the matching he informs me that uses an open circuit design unlike any of the tapped transformer setup,
    at first he said no tapped coil and i thought he meant no coil at all, i did not agree with that and asked him to describe the exact setup as they definately had a coil,
    heres what he said
    the coax feeds the bottom of the coil with no shunt to ground no tapping it part way up, the antenna is open circuit not dc grounded like most 5/8 and 1/2wave antennas, its the second one hes had and they are identical, hes thinking of doing what A/S did with the sigma2 and the small internal coil so hes dc grounded.


    http://www.worldwidedx.com/cb-antennas/27129-sirio-27-tornado-base-antenna.html

    post # 7
     
  8. Shockwave

    Shockwave
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    I see the specifications and pictures DO NOT indicate it's DC grounded. I'm surprised since adding the correct shunt coil to ground has no detrimental effect on performance and offers vastly improved lightning protection. The only time I've seen this approach was on a mobile 2 meter 5/8 wave when lightning was not an issue.
     
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  9. Marconi

    Marconi
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    I was hoping to get some dimensions from you Camaro1, but all you gave me was your overall length. That is why I made my questions in bold type. But that is alright, it has happened before when I ask questions.

    You no doubt have done something wrong, because your antenna being so short from what the manual suggest...just doesn't make sense. Plus I think the V58 has a bit better bandwidth than you are suggesting also, and that too could be a clue that something mechanical is wrong. For years I have considered Maco's manual for the V58 to be difficult...based on the way it is described and noted.

    Shockwave's comments make total sense, and he was trying hard to be nice in suggesting you were wrong and had some issues. I too question how your getting the results you're indicating. It is very obvious to any reader that knows anything about the V58, that your antenna is way short of what the manual indicates. That alone does not make anybody right or wrong, but it is a fact to consider and you seem to be totally ignoring that it might matter.

    We realize this overall length dimension in the manual is basically a starting point, but it should be very close to the length where the desired frequency, and a good match should happen. The overall length in combination with the placement of the tap on the coil work together to bring this radiator to a good match and resonance at the desired frequency. We've probably all heard similar stories to your failed attempt at tuning for years about this antenna, and that should not be ignored in your considerations as to what happened either.

    Considering you're telling us you used an analyzer to tune, I think a lot more is going on wrong with your V58 setup...than a little rain moisture on the antenna. But if you want to believe that is all there is to it...then have at it.

    Shockwave is pretty well informed on antenna design and function, and he is just trying to help you, but I'm done.
     
    #9 Marconi, Jul 17, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2013
  10. camaro1

    camaro1
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    sorry I could not get your exact dimensions for you, when I made the post I was at work, and the antenna is collapsed and in my shed at home. all I knew the the overall length that I ended at.

    I did not realize that I "failed" at tuning it,, I got the numbers to a good range, not great., and I was using an anaylyzer for my results.

    wow I wasn't expecting that.
     
    #10 camaro1, Jul 17, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2013
  11. Marconi

    Marconi
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    Well camaro1, I didn't wake up this AM expecting to have curt words with you and telling you explicitly what I thought. You didn't answer my questions, and you seemed defensive in your response to Shockwave.

    But, don't let this bother you, this is not the first time for me or Shockwave. Plus I'm an old fart that is going on 76 years, and I get cranky sometimes.

    I don't have to explain, but I will. Until I get the full dimensions of this particular antenna and can make an Eznec model for it...I'm only guessing about what should be considered when I hear a failed attempt with the V58. I would also like to see if the model will explain a bit about why this 5/8 wave radiator is shorter than other makes. Some folks are beside themselves that this antenna is not 22.5' feet tall like all the others in this category.

    Even if I make the model, I will still not be totally informed about it...compared to some of the 1000's that bought the V58, put it up, and found it to be a great little antenna and very durable.

    I would help you or anyone else if I could in a minute, and I know that Shockwave has the same sense of things being here on WWDX.

    BTW, I can not tell from the images on Sirio's site much about the Tornado, but I tend to agree with Shockwave...it is likely DC grounded...unless there is something going on with that one in particular that I don't yet understand.

    Can you explain the construction at the base of the Tarnado?

    You handled this nicely, and I'm sorry for snapping at you.
     
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  12. camaro1

    camaro1
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    no problem, I was not trying to be defensive at all to shockwave, if that's the way it came across then I am sorry also, I am positive that the sirio tornado is an open circuit design coil set up,,, I used my meter on it and checked again last night at the coax just for the heck of it.

    if you look at the vid around the 30 sec and 1min 4 sec mark it shows the base/coil,, basically its a so239 mount, the outer threads are grounded to the mount/ground radials and the center conductor goes to the coil that wraps around the base of the radiator element

    Sirio Tornado 5/8 *Updated Version* - YouTube

    I have done this same continuity test on several antennas, a99, imax, gainmaster, maco and they all did show continuity across the so239 connector that's why I checked this sirio over and checked the continuity several times because I figured the coil had to be grounded somewhere but its not.
     
    #12 camaro1, Jul 17, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2013
  13. Marconi

    Marconi
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    This surprises me too Shockwave. I figured the Tarnado was similar to the old Avanti/AS Sigma2, and I know it was DC grounded per the attached link below.

    If the Tarnado does not have some device similar to the Sigma2, then where does the shield side of the feed point attach?

    Camaro1, is the feed point for the Tarnado up inside the bottom at the base of the antenna like the Simga2?

    http://www.cbtricks.com/ant_manuals/avanti/av170/ad/graphics/s9_mag_feb_1979_pg90.png

    Here is what is inside the Sigma2 and you can see the matching device is DC grounded:

    sigma2baseinsulatorandfeed.png
     
  14. camaro1

    camaro1
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    the feed point is not internal,, the so239 is externally mounted on the ground plane bracket


    the shield side of the so239 is direct ground/continuity to the bracket that its mounted to, that contains the mounts for the ground plane elements and the base that mounts the antenna to your mast

    the center conductor goes straight to the bottom of the coil, through the coil upwards to where is connects to the radiator element

    I even took my meter and put one probe on the actuall radiator element above and below the coil and the other probe to the ground plane elements and the mounting base and it was open circuit
     
  15. camaro1

    camaro1
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    pic of feedpoint / coil
     

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