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TS SWEET 16 or TS VIKING 3200
- Thread starter dxhound
- Start date
B
BOOTY MONSTER
Guest
ive herd/read the 3200's have a high failure rate even with fans attached . a sweet 16 gives 1/2 of one s-unit or 3 db more output than a texas star 500 . doubling power output has a minimal effect on the recieved end since power output and recieved signal strength dont work in a linear way . not to mention the cost of upgrading the vehicles power system to support those big amps .
thats a lot of money for a minimal effect , but its not my money .........
thats a lot of money for a minimal effect , but its not my money .........
Hey booty, I understand that the db gain is minimal, The reason Im looking at these two amps is because I am a person who likes to "cruise" my equipment.
A 500v at 500 watts has reached the saturation point of each 2879. however the 1600 at 800 pep and the 2970 I plan on using putting out a max of 80 watts would have one of the cleanest signals around and last forever!
if i got the viking, from what I see in the schematic, I would re work some of the combiners and actually add a 11/10 meter band pass filter. thta would enable me to run legal limit 1500 and cruise the amp for longevity. Im also considering building a switchable band pass filter network to use it 10-80 meter and run that into a MFJ autotuner under the seat and have a NICE mobile setup. Yes I know I will have to add some batts and upgrade the alt. for the viking but it will be fun!
But booty, I couldnt agree more that the rxing station wouldnt see hardly any change between the 500v and the sweet 16. The laws of bell agree with you 100%
Actually now that I look at the data sheet, the 2879 is rated 100w peak so the 500v at 500 is actually past the manufactures specs. I used to have a 500v and when I was frisky I could see 650 horrible watts out....but were those watts on the fundamental frequency???
B
BOOTY MONSTER
Guest
if you gonna use this on a base the ameritron AL-811 is a 600 watt tube amp for about $100 more than lowest price ive seen for a unconverted sweet 16 (its sold and configured as a CW amp from the factory) and of course includes the powersupply . it might be something you may want to consider ...... if its a base install .
Ameritron
if hitting 800 watts is important the AL-811 is an additional $150 .
keep in mind these are true ham amps and if a super clean signal is your priority will be cleaner than any cb amp . the also make a mobile hame amp that can me modded to work on 11 meters also .
Ameritron
theres also a remote head for the ALS 500M
Ameritron
just thought you might be interested in another option.....
Ameritron
if hitting 800 watts is important the AL-811 is an additional $150 .
keep in mind these are true ham amps and if a super clean signal is your priority will be cleaner than any cb amp . the also make a mobile hame amp that can me modded to work on 11 meters also .
Ameritron
theres also a remote head for the ALS 500M
Ameritron
just thought you might be interested in another option.....
B
BOOTY MONSTER
Guest
mmmmmmmmmmmmm....................... for some reason the pics didnt show up . oh well , you can get them on the links , they do work .
i had a 500V also . my grant pushed it to about 500 watts according to the astatic 700 meter . when i compared it to my palomar 225 doing about 170-180 watts i didnt loose any local contacts and getting replies when skip was running didnt seem to suffer either . i sold the 500 .
i had a 500V also . my grant pushed it to about 500 watts according to the astatic 700 meter . when i compared it to my palomar 225 doing about 170-180 watts i didnt loose any local contacts and getting replies when skip was running didnt seem to suffer either . i sold the 500 .
This will be in the truck, I run a ten tec 425 on the base station with an ft101e infront of it with some audio gear.
Im Very familiar with the ameritron als500. A friend of mine runs one. They are nice lil amps. I like to tinker and thus my push for the TS. I want to try and make my own band pass filters and see what I can come up with.
But yes If I wanted the easy route the ameritron als 500 or henry 1200 and maybe even the metron amps would be the way to go. that and a tar heel!!!
Yeah on my LP100a with my hr2510 driving my 500v I would see about 480 on AM and near 575 SSB. Just for fun I detuned a 2970 I had at the time for a 5 watt carrier and 65 watt peak and it showed nearly 700!!!!!! I was shocked. But again, I know none of that extra power was being applied to my fundamental freq.
The diff between 180 watts and 500 watts is about 5 db gain or not quite 1 S unit(6db gain would equal 1 S unit in a perfect world) So yeah the diff would be almost negligeable unless a station was having trouble hearing you at the 500 watt mark.
Im Very familiar with the ameritron als500. A friend of mine runs one. They are nice lil amps. I like to tinker and thus my push for the TS. I want to try and make my own band pass filters and see what I can come up with.
But yes If I wanted the easy route the ameritron als 500 or henry 1200 and maybe even the metron amps would be the way to go. that and a tar heel!!!
Yeah on my LP100a with my hr2510 driving my 500v I would see about 480 on AM and near 575 SSB. Just for fun I detuned a 2970 I had at the time for a 5 watt carrier and 65 watt peak and it showed nearly 700!!!!!! I was shocked. But again, I know none of that extra power was being applied to my fundamental freq.
The diff between 180 watts and 500 watts is about 5 db gain or not quite 1 S unit(6db gain would equal 1 S unit in a perfect world) So yeah the diff would be almost negligeable unless a station was having trouble hearing you at the 500 watt mark.
True but It will likely be overdriven and be a class C splatter box and not be worth a damn for SSB which is my main concern. Yes I know the TS1600 is not a "suppersplatter-wattcrushin-swangthang-keydownking" But with 70 watts drive it will give a clean 900-1kw out. and there would be no diff. in the TS 1kw or the 8 pill box at 1600 watts unless you were having a key down and parked next to each other. Besides that, have you ever seen one of those on a spectrum analyzer? once the transistors reach saturation(same point the Texas star would) all that extra power your watt meter show isnt even being applied to the freq your transmitting on.
B
BOOTY MONSTER
Guest
http://www.firecommunications.com/notreal.txt
notes on incorrect and excessively
high (ridiculous) power measurements
when excessive drive and volting are
applied and the case for one obvious
cause of this anomaly.
"When you apply more volts than 13.8 to 2879's there are no specs to show results, just because
you say it doesnt exist doesnt make it so." oh there are plenty of maximum ratings provided in
the manufacturers specifications that when read and properly understood more than explain why
these transistor power output claims are nothing but smoke and mirrors.
let's begin with the most revealing of the maximum ratings provided in the case of the 2879.
Collector Power Dissipation: 250W: that's the collector INPUT they're talking about. now here's
a question that needs answered. how can a device that's rated for 250W maximum input dissipation
produce output levels of 400W + unless there's something going on that is not readily seen and
understood? you plug in any efficiency percentage you want to there for any class of amplifier
operation and multiply it by 250 and see what you get.
furthermore, power gain (Gp) for the 2879 is 13db.. at 5W in that's 100W output or 40% of the
maximum collector input power dissipation, assuming here for the moment that the gain of the
device doesn't begin dropping off as power output is increased and that's a lie. as conduction
of the device rises above the turn on "knee" and compression begins to take place the gain of
the transistor begins to deteriorate, not actually a desirable trait in an amplifier being
modulated with an asymmetrical signal source. @ 400W output that's 160% of the same. so we're
supposed to believe that a transistor can produce more power than it consumes. i don't think so.
haven't any of you wizards figured out yet why the power supplies required to generate these
mythical power figures keep getting larger and larger?
maximum input power is listed at 10W
at 10WPEP input the output from a single device will be in excess of 130W but IMD levels will
be trashed without the addition of suitable low pass filtering. coincidentally the output level
is >50% of the maximum collector dissipation rating at this point and transistor Gp has fallen to
almost 11 db.. beyond this point we begin to see energy developed that is NOT OCCURRING at the
fundamental frequency. there's some of your maximum ratings.
dbg = 10log(Pin/Pout)
dbg = 10log(130/10)
dbg = 10log(13.0)
dbg = 10(1.113)
dbg = 11.139
the largest factor contributing to the highly erroneous readings produced by the majority of hf
wattmeters is created when energy begins to appear at frequencies 3, 5, 7 (and higher) times
the fundamental operating frequency. the more the drive and operating voltage is increased the
more pronounced the effect becomes. in addition to the sum addition of the energy present at
these multiples of the operating frequency the problem is compounded by the wattmeter design
itself. the line section is designed to sample a specific amount of energy at the fundamental
operating frequency in a direct relationship to the physical length of the line section as that
length correlates to a given fraction of a wavelength at the intended operating frequency. when
energy begins appearing at the odd harmonics not only is the power added by the line section but
it is also amplified because as frequency is increased the line section becomes longer with
regard to the fractional wavelength represented by the line section initially at 27 mhz.. there
fore the line section is "oversampling" the energy levels occurring at the frequencies previously
mentioned. once these harmonics begin to occur the environment is ripe for a sort of controlled
"oscillation", the harmonic energy present acting as the trigger.
now in addition to the energy present at 27 mhz. you now have substantial levels of vhf and in
some cases even uhf energy directly affecting the accuracy of the measuring device.
if the line section is say 1/100th of a wavelength (typical) at 27, as energy appears at the odd
harmonics at 81, 135 and 189 mhz. the line section becomes exceedingly many times longer in
terms of wavelength and oversampling occurs. since at the higher harmonic frequencies the line
section is sampling incrementally longer portions of a single wavelength this produces increasing
ly higher readings and measurements. this is probably the largest contributing factor to the rid
iculous power measurements.
you can easily prove this to yourself by inputting a predetermined amount of vhf transmitter
power into your hf wattmeter. pre-measure say 1 watt of vhf power using the proper vhf wattmeter
and a dummy load and then after the output power is confirmed then feed it into your hf wattmeter
set to an appropriate scale and see what happens. your hf wattmeter will indicate several times
more power present than the 1 watt of power seen on the vhf wattmeter.
the end result is that literally hundreds of watts of power (in this example) as indicated by the
average hf wattmeter is NOT OCCURRING AT THE FUNDAMENTAL OPERATING FREQUENCY.
unknowingly or otherwise, this deception is being created by excessive drive and operating
voltages. (spectral purity of the exciter signal not withstanding) i have seen some suggestions
bandied about that could limit these erroneous readings such as using line sections and slugs
that are frequency restricted in their design so as to eliminate the oversampling problem by
rejecting the energy occurring at odd harmonics above 54 mhz and the use of effective low pass
filtering. that might end up costing some of you a lot more money. it's a lot simpler to just
adhere to the transistor specifications and follow the manufacturers recommendations regarding
operating voltages and input drive levels. it's easier all around if the IMD energy isn't
generated in the first place.
the bottom line here is that amplifier buyers are being sold a "bill of goods" that does not
perform as represented and advertised. 2X2SC2879's will NOT PRODUCE 800W OF ANY KIND OF POWER
AT THE FUNDAMENTAL OPERATING FREQUENCY. there's the disclaimer.
adjusted line section target length
= 4.34 inches, approximately 1/100
of a wavelength @ 27.185. look below
to see how the line section becomes
longer in terms of wavelengths as
energy appears and is measured at
odd harmonics at IMD3, IMD5 and IMD7
levels which are the direct result
of overvolting and excessive drive.
as you can see, at frequencies above
27Mhz. and successfully higher there
is a much larger sampling of energy
as the line section becomes longer in
terms of fractions of a wavelength.
this greatly exaggerates the real
power occurring at the fundamental
operating frequency.
1/100 of a wavelength @ 27Mhz.
1/50 of a wavelength @ 54Mhz.
1/37.5 of a wavelength @ 81Mhz. IMD3
1/25 of a wavelength @ 108Mhz.
1/21.875 of a wavelength @ 135Mhz. IMD5
1/18.75 of a wavelength @ 162Mhz.
1/15.625 of a wavelength @ 189Mhz. IMD7
1/12.5 of a wavelength @ 216Mhz.
1/11.71875 of a wavelength @ 243Mhz. ODD
1/10.9375 of a wavelength @ 270Mhz.
1/10.15625 of a wavelength @ 297Mhz. ODD
1/9.375 of a wavelength @ 324Mhz.
1/8.59375 of a wavelength @ 351Mhz. ODD
1/7.8125 of a wavelength @ 378Mhz.
1/7.03125 of a wavelength @ 405Mhz. ODD
1/6.25 of a wavelength @ 432Mhz.
while the line section is actually slightly shorter
(inch fractional) than 1/100 of a wavelength @ 27mhz.
the proportions represented by the fractions regarding
wavelength are accurate. the adjusted figure given at
the top of the page is a direct result of: 984/FMhz.
the correction was approximately +0.04....from actual
measured length of the line section. i admit the
measurement was made hastily but not enough of a
difference exists to really matter. my purpose here
is moreso to provide a concept for consideration and
experimentation than it is to obtain absolute accuracy,
albeit both are important.
we have known for quite some time that in comparison
to the fundamental power levels that these other
"products" were relatively small by comparison but
this does begin to explain the exaggerated power claims
and why we're seeing all of this imaginary energy when
referenced to the actual operating frequency and the
manufacturer's specifications regarding the devices
used in this equipment. i am by no means precluding
the presence of other contributing factors as well
and would like any input available along those lines.
ref:
http://www.firecommunications.com/trdbase/2sc2879.pdf
292 Radio Shop / FireCommunications Network
email me @:
Contact Form - WWW.FIRECOMMUNICATIONS.COM
a thorough discussion of this topic will begin soon
here in the Technicians Exchange Forum:
Technicians Exchange
notes on incorrect and excessively
high (ridiculous) power measurements
when excessive drive and volting are
applied and the case for one obvious
cause of this anomaly.
"When you apply more volts than 13.8 to 2879's there are no specs to show results, just because
you say it doesnt exist doesnt make it so." oh there are plenty of maximum ratings provided in
the manufacturers specifications that when read and properly understood more than explain why
these transistor power output claims are nothing but smoke and mirrors.
let's begin with the most revealing of the maximum ratings provided in the case of the 2879.
Collector Power Dissipation: 250W: that's the collector INPUT they're talking about. now here's
a question that needs answered. how can a device that's rated for 250W maximum input dissipation
produce output levels of 400W + unless there's something going on that is not readily seen and
understood? you plug in any efficiency percentage you want to there for any class of amplifier
operation and multiply it by 250 and see what you get.
furthermore, power gain (Gp) for the 2879 is 13db.. at 5W in that's 100W output or 40% of the
maximum collector input power dissipation, assuming here for the moment that the gain of the
device doesn't begin dropping off as power output is increased and that's a lie. as conduction
of the device rises above the turn on "knee" and compression begins to take place the gain of
the transistor begins to deteriorate, not actually a desirable trait in an amplifier being
modulated with an asymmetrical signal source. @ 400W output that's 160% of the same. so we're
supposed to believe that a transistor can produce more power than it consumes. i don't think so.
haven't any of you wizards figured out yet why the power supplies required to generate these
mythical power figures keep getting larger and larger?
maximum input power is listed at 10W
at 10WPEP input the output from a single device will be in excess of 130W but IMD levels will
be trashed without the addition of suitable low pass filtering. coincidentally the output level
is >50% of the maximum collector dissipation rating at this point and transistor Gp has fallen to
almost 11 db.. beyond this point we begin to see energy developed that is NOT OCCURRING at the
fundamental frequency. there's some of your maximum ratings.
dbg = 10log(Pin/Pout)
dbg = 10log(130/10)
dbg = 10log(13.0)
dbg = 10(1.113)
dbg = 11.139
the largest factor contributing to the highly erroneous readings produced by the majority of hf
wattmeters is created when energy begins to appear at frequencies 3, 5, 7 (and higher) times
the fundamental operating frequency. the more the drive and operating voltage is increased the
more pronounced the effect becomes. in addition to the sum addition of the energy present at
these multiples of the operating frequency the problem is compounded by the wattmeter design
itself. the line section is designed to sample a specific amount of energy at the fundamental
operating frequency in a direct relationship to the physical length of the line section as that
length correlates to a given fraction of a wavelength at the intended operating frequency. when
energy begins appearing at the odd harmonics not only is the power added by the line section but
it is also amplified because as frequency is increased the line section becomes longer with
regard to the fractional wavelength represented by the line section initially at 27 mhz.. there
fore the line section is "oversampling" the energy levels occurring at the frequencies previously
mentioned. once these harmonics begin to occur the environment is ripe for a sort of controlled
"oscillation", the harmonic energy present acting as the trigger.
now in addition to the energy present at 27 mhz. you now have substantial levels of vhf and in
some cases even uhf energy directly affecting the accuracy of the measuring device.
if the line section is say 1/100th of a wavelength (typical) at 27, as energy appears at the odd
harmonics at 81, 135 and 189 mhz. the line section becomes exceedingly many times longer in
terms of wavelength and oversampling occurs. since at the higher harmonic frequencies the line
section is sampling incrementally longer portions of a single wavelength this produces increasing
ly higher readings and measurements. this is probably the largest contributing factor to the rid
iculous power measurements.
you can easily prove this to yourself by inputting a predetermined amount of vhf transmitter
power into your hf wattmeter. pre-measure say 1 watt of vhf power using the proper vhf wattmeter
and a dummy load and then after the output power is confirmed then feed it into your hf wattmeter
set to an appropriate scale and see what happens. your hf wattmeter will indicate several times
more power present than the 1 watt of power seen on the vhf wattmeter.
the end result is that literally hundreds of watts of power (in this example) as indicated by the
average hf wattmeter is NOT OCCURRING AT THE FUNDAMENTAL OPERATING FREQUENCY.
unknowingly or otherwise, this deception is being created by excessive drive and operating
voltages. (spectral purity of the exciter signal not withstanding) i have seen some suggestions
bandied about that could limit these erroneous readings such as using line sections and slugs
that are frequency restricted in their design so as to eliminate the oversampling problem by
rejecting the energy occurring at odd harmonics above 54 mhz and the use of effective low pass
filtering. that might end up costing some of you a lot more money. it's a lot simpler to just
adhere to the transistor specifications and follow the manufacturers recommendations regarding
operating voltages and input drive levels. it's easier all around if the IMD energy isn't
generated in the first place.
the bottom line here is that amplifier buyers are being sold a "bill of goods" that does not
perform as represented and advertised. 2X2SC2879's will NOT PRODUCE 800W OF ANY KIND OF POWER
AT THE FUNDAMENTAL OPERATING FREQUENCY. there's the disclaimer.
adjusted line section target length
= 4.34 inches, approximately 1/100
of a wavelength @ 27.185. look below
to see how the line section becomes
longer in terms of wavelengths as
energy appears and is measured at
odd harmonics at IMD3, IMD5 and IMD7
levels which are the direct result
of overvolting and excessive drive.
as you can see, at frequencies above
27Mhz. and successfully higher there
is a much larger sampling of energy
as the line section becomes longer in
terms of fractions of a wavelength.
this greatly exaggerates the real
power occurring at the fundamental
operating frequency.
1/100 of a wavelength @ 27Mhz.
1/50 of a wavelength @ 54Mhz.
1/37.5 of a wavelength @ 81Mhz. IMD3
1/25 of a wavelength @ 108Mhz.
1/21.875 of a wavelength @ 135Mhz. IMD5
1/18.75 of a wavelength @ 162Mhz.
1/15.625 of a wavelength @ 189Mhz. IMD7
1/12.5 of a wavelength @ 216Mhz.
1/11.71875 of a wavelength @ 243Mhz. ODD
1/10.9375 of a wavelength @ 270Mhz.
1/10.15625 of a wavelength @ 297Mhz. ODD
1/9.375 of a wavelength @ 324Mhz.
1/8.59375 of a wavelength @ 351Mhz. ODD
1/7.8125 of a wavelength @ 378Mhz.
1/7.03125 of a wavelength @ 405Mhz. ODD
1/6.25 of a wavelength @ 432Mhz.
while the line section is actually slightly shorter
(inch fractional) than 1/100 of a wavelength @ 27mhz.
the proportions represented by the fractions regarding
wavelength are accurate. the adjusted figure given at
the top of the page is a direct result of: 984/FMhz.
the correction was approximately +0.04....from actual
measured length of the line section. i admit the
measurement was made hastily but not enough of a
difference exists to really matter. my purpose here
is moreso to provide a concept for consideration and
experimentation than it is to obtain absolute accuracy,
albeit both are important.
we have known for quite some time that in comparison
to the fundamental power levels that these other
"products" were relatively small by comparison but
this does begin to explain the exaggerated power claims
and why we're seeing all of this imaginary energy when
referenced to the actual operating frequency and the
manufacturer's specifications regarding the devices
used in this equipment. i am by no means precluding
the presence of other contributing factors as well
and would like any input available along those lines.
ref:
http://www.firecommunications.com/trdbase/2sc2879.pdf
292 Radio Shop / FireCommunications Network
email me @:
Contact Form - WWW.FIRECOMMUNICATIONS.COM
a thorough discussion of this topic will begin soon
here in the Technicians Exchange Forum:
Technicians Exchange
Bendare Has a V-3200 that was redone by Boo....it was sometime ago he had it for salr...But knowing Ben He still has it.....
Peace Yota
Peace Yota