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A few comments, amateur radio vs CB

BOOTY MONSTER said:
so the "492/fmhz. X %vf = length in feet" formula to get the coax to show the truest swr measurement (with cb equipment on cb channels) is nonsense ?
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What I was trying to get at is, it AIN'T that big a deal!!! The first mistake that CBers AND hams make is working their tails off trying to get down that last eensy weensy bit of reflected power out of their system. Like the 1.5 thing. AAAAAAAAAK! I've just GOT to get it down to 1.1. And they'll fiddle and fiddle and fiddle tinker, tinker and tinker with it for HOURS trying to get that very LAST watt out. The bottom line is, the difference between 1.1 and 1,5 you will NEVER be able to measure. First off, and yet again, FORGET about the coax length!!!! Those formulas are for figuring the length of the ANTENNA itself. It's got nothing to do with the coax. It only counts in PHASED systems. You're spending time worrying about something that won't have a whole lot to do with things. I don't understand when or why people started getting all balled in figuring the velocity factor as part of SWR. IT DOESN'T FREAKIN' MATTER!!!! All VF tells you is, THE SPEED AT WHICH A RF SIGNAL TRAVELS THRU A GIVEN MEDIUM. ITS FASTER THRU *AIR*, SLOWER THRU A SOLID MEDIUM. THAT'S ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And even if this is true, it isn't enough to make a whit of difference! Tune the ANTENNA, not the coax!!!!!!!!!!

If you want to fiddle with the coax length, monkey with formulas, impress your friends, go ahead!!!!! All those formulas are a placebo!!!!!!!! Go back and look at the post about the multi-band mobile antenna. IF coax were so dadblamed important, multiband HF mobile operation would be impossible. Yet, it is done every day, it INCLUDES 11 Meters, and operators move fluidly from 3 MHZ to 29 MHZ with an SWR of 1.2 (average) and work the entire world with great success! Once again, If all this bull-sh-- about a "certain" coax length were true, then a mobile operator would have to have his mobile CHOCKABLOCK (with apologies to the late crocodile hunter) with coaxes, each cut to a "certain" length (some of them ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FEET LONG!) to work these frequencies. And if he found himself on an odd frequency for which he had no "right" coax cut, he couldn't work it! WHERE would he PUT all that coax?

SO! TUNE the Freakin' antenna itself, not the coax. Coax length?

HORSE HOCKEY!!!!!!!!! :thumbup:

CWM
 
LMAO!!!

Red Ranger you did not do a very good job of proving your point at all.

the points you brought up have absolutely nothing to do with art's level of intelligence.

um, successful talk radio show?
big deal, you think the show was successful because of his stellar personality?
his rapier wit? LOL give me a break!
his show was successful because of the subject matter plain and simple.
conspiracy theorists would have listened to anyone who talked about UFO's and bigfoot. LOL

a popular ham operator? LOL again.
have you ever listened to 3840?
he gets bashed constantly because he is a pompous ass. LOL

married three times?
yeah, because each wife realized that money was no substitute for a personality. LOL
why do you think he ran to the philippines and married a woman young enough to be his child? because american women wouldnt be caught dead with him.
i think what he did was despicable. what a letch!
any rich white pervert can go do the exact same thing.

and what the heck does going on a cruise have to do with anything? LOL
plenty of idiots go on cruises every year.

while i would have used a different term, such as maybe, huge dork, or egomaniac; i agree with QRN; art bell is an idiot.

i live in Nevada, and QRN knows exactly what he is talking about.
the fact that art couldnt figure out why he had so much voltage on his antenna just says that his ego wouldnt let him believe that he wasted his time and money on that antenna system.
seems like a pretty idiotic thing to do to me. LOL

ok, hijack over.
LC
 
Red Ranger said:
That is the dumbest thing I have EVER heard!:headbang Umm, lets see, Art ran a very sucessful radio show, retired like three or four times, is a Popular ham operator, had that popular loop, was a popular talk show host, married like three women, went the Philippines and got a beauty after Romona flopped. What I understand Art just got back from a Cruise, so um yeah an idiot? I think not.:headbang
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Nothing you have stated above has ANYTHING to do with being or not being an idiot. There is no connection at all. I used to work with someone that went on to become one of the highest paid radio jocks in NYC,and later San Francisco,making several million a year. She's dead now but I don't miss her.She was a total idiot and self professed pathological liar. Darian O'Toole, S.F. disc jockey dies at 40 Being a popular ham operator does NOT in any way mean you can't be an idiot. Ever listen to some of them on the bands? What about some of the big gun contesters? IT9RYH is very popular as is the crowd on 14.275. I can say that with great conviction because I AM a ham and have been for 20 years or so. Also does having been married at least three times have to do with not being an idiot? Perhaps the reason he was married that many times is that he WAS in fact an idiot. Granted when Romona passed away it was not something that could have been attributed to being one. Also WTF does having been on a cruise have to do with not being an idiot? I was on one once and met plenty of idiots ranging from drunks to egomaniacs to folks that were so full of crap it flowed out their ears.Art presents his weird and wild versions of pseudoscience as being fact. In fact
In 1998, Art was named as recipient of the less-than-prestigious Snuffed Candle Award. The Council for Media Integrity cited Bell "for encouraging credulity, presenting pseudoscience as genuine, and contributing to the public's lack of understanding of the methods of scientific inquiry."

Also beginning in late 1996, Art was criticized for reporting rumors that the comet Hale-Bopp was being trailed by a UFO. It was speculated that members of the Heavens-Gate group committed mass suicide based on rumors Art aired.

In other words, Art likes to make mountains out of molehills and refuses to take expert opinions seriously and instead prefers to let the listener believe there is something more to the story that there ever possibly could be. The whole fiasco over his antenna apparently generating free power magically is one such example. He refuses to admit it is simply static buildup and would rather let people believe it has "truely magical properties". Art's own words, not mine, when describing his loop antenna. One thing he does well is attract listeners. Again that itself has nothing to do with being or not being an idiot.

The above is simply my opinion and I am entitled to it. You are equally entitled to your own opinion,however you have produced nothing to change my mind so far.

Looks like I was typing while loosecannon was hitting the submit button.It would appear that he and I have a lot of common ground in the opinion of Art.:thumbup1: I was wondering, have we shifted the focus of this thread far enough yet or is there still more room to go? :thumbup:
 
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Still room to go. I tried to cram as much info as I could when I put my system in and had people tell me to go in multiples of 18' which was a full wave length I think. 18' wasn't long enough so I went 36'!! And it was heavy stuff also. LMR400 maybe? It wasn't easy to work with. I was also told jumpers should be in 3' increments or was it 4'. Don't remember. But that is what I started with. And I still have 36' of LMR400 running through my truck. Had I known it could have been shorter I'da made it shorter. But like I said earlier I found it odd that the truck had to be 18' or 36' but my base unit length didn't matter. I don't claim to be a radio expert and have no desire to become one. But yet I have no desire to be a mud duck either!! So I'll continue to read and further my knowledge
about CB and it's antennas. I also have read from both CB and Hamsters that a good antenna system can actually destroy antenna theory. I would also assume experts on antenna theory are like experts on how to fix our economy. Neither expert can agree.
 
Art Bell is an idiot and likes to make more of something than it really is. Haven't you noticed that? Let's see, he has 3200 feet of wire up 75 feet in the air and lives in Nevada. Any high school kid can tell you what happens to that wire when the wind blows across it in that dry environment.I isolated a 170 foot high AM broadcast tower from ground in order to do some tests.It was cold and dry as it was in early December. Stupid me forgot to ground out the tower before I reconnected it to the tuning system. I got knocked to my knees from the static buildup. Art's antenna is no differant,just bigger.
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I disagree about the idiot thing, but your explanation makes perfect sense. That was what I suspected.

"Free energy"? Maybe, it would be very cool to have some and it might be viable.

As far as his radio show goes, he did make it a success and it was done as entertainment, not scientific fact. I enjoyed listening to it and got more than a few laughs from it while driving at night.

I have witnessed alot of static electricity, having formerly worked on AC transmission towers and sub-stations up to 345KV.

In even a 69Kv sub, the static is unreal. You cannot slowly grab the steel structure slowly, it'll arc right out to you. We had to develop a habit of grabbing quickly. Even wooden step ladders would develop a field that if you put your arm near the area where the step met the upright, it would make your hair stand up.:eek:
 
"I also have read from both CB and Hamsters that a good antenna system can actually destroy antenna theory."

Just depends on the 'theory' and who'z doing the testing. It typically means that someone doesn't know enough about what's happening to understand what's happening in some particular circumstance. If someone 'instantly' knows what the problem is, it's usually because they have made the same mistake/assumption themselves.
Antenna 'theory' has been around for a good while. It advances, or changes slightly, because something 'new' was discovered (better measuring devices) or is thought of in a different way, or from a different point of view. Nothing 'new' at all, just more information added to the 'pile', or someone has worked his/her way through that 'pile' and the light comes on. The ones to watch for are those that have worked their way though only part of that 'pile' and come to some miraculous new conclusion about antennas.
If you want to try something different, and it works, you are only half done. You still have to figure out -why- the thing works. All this radio stuff has been around long enough that the odds are that whatever the 'new' thing is, it's been tried before. If it involves something that wasn't available when it was tried before, then you certainly have a chance of really having something 'new'. You still have the 'other half' of the thing to figure out... the 'why', which is the hard part.
- 'Doc

The first part is 'luck'. The second part is called science.
 
T-bone said:
Still room to go. I tried to cram as much info as I could when I put my system in and had people tell me to go in multiples of 18' which was a full wave length I think. 18' wasn't long enough so I went 36'!! And it was heavy stuff also. LMR400 maybe? It wasn't easy to work with. I was also told jumpers should be in 3' increments or was it 4'. Don't remember. But that is what I started with. And I still have 36' of LMR400 running through my truck. Had I known it could have been shorter I'da made it shorter. But like I said earlier I found it odd that the truck had to be 18' or 36' but my base unit length didn't matter. I don't claim to be a radio expert and have no desire to become one. But yet I have no desire to be a mud duck either!! So I'll continue to read and further my knowledge
about CB and it's antennas. I also have read from both CB and Hamsters that a good antenna system can actually destroy antenna theory. I would also assume experts on antenna theory are like experts on how to fix our economy. Neither expert can agree.
Click to expand...

______________________________________________________________

But like I said earlier I found it odd that the truck had to be 18' or 36' but my base unit length didn't matter. (quote)

You noticed that, too?:thumbup: That's because the coax length doesn't MATTER!!! (Except in certain specific situations). The coax length MYTH was BORN on CB, LIVES on CB, FLOURISHES in the CB community, passed down to generations of well-meaning, but misinformed "technicians" (yeah, right!). Ninety-nine point nine, nine, nine, nine times it simply doesn't matter. If you install your antenna on your car, it has a metal roof, trunk, hood, etc. TUNE the length of the antenna and FORGET about fiddling with coax. :)

CWM
 
The proper way to measure SWR is to have the meter connected between the antenna and the coax. At this point the coax length is out of the equation, and the antenna can be adjusted to resonance for a proper match. But sometimes on a base antenna this isn´t practical. Standing waves of voltage and current begin at the antenna end of the coax. These readings repeat themselves in the coax every 1/2 wavelength. So, If the meter is connected between the TRANSMITTER and the coax, then the coax has to be 1/2 wavelength (or multiples of) for the meter to correctly interpret what is happening at the antenna end. The coax length does not affect the actual SWR, but it can have an effect on the apparent reading on an SWR meter. This is how the "18 foot rule" got started. Actually, 18 feet is the physical not the electrical length. This is where the 492/fmhz X VF% = length (feet) should be applied to get the right coax length for the meter to read accurately.

BTW... a note from a CBer to CWM:

INTELLIGENT PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IDEAS


ORDINARY PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THINGS


SMALL PEOPLE TALK ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE


- 399
 
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The biggest laugh I get from this whole halfwave length of coax thing is that 18 feet is NOT a halfwave of coax.The velocity factor is not taken into account at all. :biggrin:
 
Cat Driver,
From reading only the site posted, I'd have to say that they knew what they are talking about. I wouldn't have phrased a few things just as they did, but whoopy, it's basically correct. Haven't read any of their other things so can't say much about that. Would I use them for 'expert' advice? Depends, which just means that I might or might not. I don't consider myself an 'expert' either, please don't get that idea!
- 'Doc
 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Most SWR meters (built into radio and external type meters) and impedance "humps" in coax lines and connectors will cause minor variations in SWR as jumpers and coax length are varied. In reality, the mismatch at the antenna's feedpoint / coax junction is unchanged. Therefore - the actual SWR is unchanged. (quote from the link)[/SIZE][/FONT]


[SIZE=-1][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Nothing really to object to here. What it amounts to still....................Don't WORRY about the coax length! When it's all said and done, when you TUNE the antenna, all that other stuff will take care of itself! It-ain't-worth-worrying-about. Come to think of it, I wonder how many people trimmed their coax using all those generally useless formulas (except in certain specific cases), had a WAY out of resonance antenna, and mysteriously had finals to POP with no explanation? But, according to their super-duper meter, they had GREAT SWR:thumbup:[/FONT][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]CWM[/FONT][/SIZE]

[/FONT]
 

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