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Comparing an A99 to a Wolf .64

Marconi

Honorary Member Silent Key
Oct 23, 2005
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How can we explain this experience while comparing two different antennas?

For some few weeks now I have been comparing an A99 at 35’ without a GPK and a Wolf .64 ground plane at about 30’. I check and record signals of various stations around me locally using a switch box. My radio does not respond well to signal differences when the signals get above S7, so I use my RF gain to bring a particular signal down in the range of S3 where the meter reflects small changes better when switching between the antennas under test. I just record the differences only between my two antennas to a particular station. The particular value of signals from different stations recorded on my report are not important to the outcome, it is the differences I find between my two antennas on switching that I look for. It is not a perfect procedure, but I think it gives a pretty fair indication of differences most of the time. The gist so far between these two antennas is that there is very little difference in signals noted, meaning almost zero difference as best I can detect. Thus far without being consistent this is also true when DX is working, with maybe a slight advantage using the Wolf.

Last Sunday night I was scanning the CB band and heard a familiar voice. A buddy (WJ) about 6 miles north of me was talking. He was just talking to a friend of his named Marvin. I learned during their conversation that Marvin was a bit farther and to the south of me maybe 13 or more miles away. This placed me somewhere between them. I was on my A99 and was seeing an S9+ signal on WJ so I tuned the RF gain down on his signal to S3, but Marvin’s signal went down to zero. I raised the gain on Marvin back up to S3 and then I was getting a steady S5 on WJ. I switched over to the Wolf while WJ was talking and I saw a very big jump up to S9 maybe more from him. When Marvin started talking I also noted a healthy increase to S7 on him using the Wolf. I switched back to the A99 and the signals went back to the original readings. I was amazed since for weeks I had been seeing no or very modest differences doing the same thing all over my local area. While I continued to listen in amazement, wondering why, WJ mentioned that he was on his 5 element flat side yagi. Marvin confirmed that he too was on his flat side antenna when a neighbor popped up and told us that he could hardly hear either WJ or Marvin and wanted to know what was going on. It became obvious to me immediately that both WJ and Marvin switched back to a vertical as both their signals began to read the same to me when switching between my A99 and the Wolf. So, the difference was the response of the Wolf to horizontal signals when compared to the A99.

Since both my antennas are vertical what allowed the horizontal response with the Wolf that much greater than the A99 in this scenario?

In the past I have also seen similar response differences when comparing other verticals to an AstroPlane.

Considering that all of my previous unrecorded DX reports showed me little or no differences between these two antennas, what could account for this using the Wolf .64 ground plane?
 

I would just imagine that it had to do with propagation. And, maybe, the physical relation between your two antennas? Seriously doubt if it had anything to do with a .64 wave length antenna's reception of the opposite polarity as opposes to a .625 wave length (or .5 wl, or .25 wl, or 13/76ths wl) antenna's reception of the same, since polarity has nothing to do with antenna length.
- 'Doc
 
I agree that it probably had nothing to do with the physical size or the advertised wavelength of the antennas and I hope I did not suggest the same in my remarks. If I did, then I was in error.

I did not let these guys know I was there during all this, so as soon as reasonable I will approach my bud about 6 miles to my north and check this out again with his beam and see if I can duplicate this affect. True it could be propagation, but I did not notice such during this prolonged period of about 30 minutes with them switching back and forth as it turns out.

I will also try this out with another station off in the distance to see how it reacts there as well. Hopefully, I can duplicate the experience and if I can I wll still not know why they respond almost exactally the same to other vertical antennas all around, but show to be remarkably different when responding to horizontal signals from these nearby stations. I didn't notice any changes in conditions and would think that being as close as we were would rule out much of that without it being very noticable.

I know that when direct RF waves combine with reflected RF waves to a distant station as in a positive phasing relationship, the affect will be dramatic and show an increase in signal. When the opposite is true and the signals are out of phase the response is dramatically the opposite. Do you think this is what was happening here?
 
Marconi,
I honestly don't know, but I guess it's possible. I would think that propagations would have to have something to do with it, that's about the only thing that really left when you start ruling things out, sort of. I've seen that sort of thingy happen (not on 11 meters) once or twice. People I'd had no real expectation of hearing very well (too close?) be loud on an antenna of a different polarity from what I was using to start with. Their antenna polarity didn't change, but mine did. Didn't last for a very long time, but... who'da thunk it anyway?
- 'Doc

{Actually, I do know why, it's a very well kept secret us real DX'ers have. Deals with what you were wearing at the time. You ought'a be ashamed Marconi!}
 
the guys selling the colinear sigma4 claim the phasing loop allows some circular component and sensitivity to horizontal signals,
what do you think about their claims and could the loops in the wolf cause a similar effect?
 
You make a good point Bob.

I have read reports of the benefits of circular polarization in FM broadcasting and in particular with the idea of improving the audio quality for FM base to mobile transmissions.

As you may know, Wolf Radio is heavy into the Pirate FM thing and it all has to do with maintaining the high fidelity of the FM signal. Eddie use to have some words posted to his Website talking about this subject, but in his case he was probably talk about co-linear stacking or multi-bay dipoles making for the improved signals.

I don't know how he gets by with it unless he has a license, but he claims to use several multi-bay phased 1/2 wave dipoles on his 200 foot tower to improve his FM broadcasting. I know he is also heavy into MP3 music production and streaming of video. I stream “WolfRadio.com” an Internet digital radio station into my High School Website for music, but I’m not sure if he is directly connected with this bunch or not even though they are all over there in Florida. I have talked with Eddie several times over the last few years, but he never said anything about his .64 having such a circular characteristic. Eddie used to post here sometimes. Maybe if he is still looking in, he will add something to the discussion for us since his .64 is the topic of this thread.

You are correct again Bob. Just as you note these folks building the co-linear Dominator model also talk about this circular business as well, regarding their 6 meter FM antenna.

Just recently someone posted something about how the .64 performed and how theirs seemed to be falling apart on him. I don’t think mine is falling apart, but frankly and until now I have found nothing special to crow about regarding this ground plane. Otherwise I class it right in there with the other 11-meter brands and models, no better and no worse.

For me static type noise is not a problem with the .64, but it always has a high white noise level that I find annoying to listen to even when compared to my A99, which has a bit of static most of the time. The deal with the A99 is however, I have radios that handle the static quite well and then it is much quieter than the .64. For me that is an issue and maybe I should check it for something loose.

You can also bet that I will be trying to check this deal of showing improved RX signals with horizontal beams out as well. If I can duplicate this on RX then I will also check it out with TX as well.
 
Hate to say this, but there's no circular polarization at all from that 'Razr' antenna. The device in the center of it is a phasing section/loop, as stated in the advertisement. The same sort of phasing section/loop can be found on many other vertical array antennas, it's very common, been around for years, does NOT do circular polarization.
It seems the advertising 'gimmick' of using huge amounts of B.S. is spreading. Too bad.
- 'Doc

If there is a reduction in signal when opposing polarizations are used, what happens to the signal if a circular polarization antenna is used for either transmitting or receiving, if a non-circular polarized antenna is used during those periods of dissimilar polarization? Seems like there would only be two instances of similar polarization, so most of the time it'd be rotten reception. With all that swinging around, like a sailor getting his 'land-legs' back, it'd be staggering all over the place! Just another example of that 'American' winter game... horse-hockey.


Oops! Bob I owe you an apology! Thought that site was in the UK. It isn't, sorry.
 
I believe you are right 'Doc. Only advantage I can see with CP might be between two fixed stations with equally rotating or opposite rotating signals, however it works to communicate best.

A Tech on another forum was in the process of developing such an omni antenna with CP to be used as a single element or in multiple bays. He claimed a single element it would respond similar to a typical vertical ground plane, but would provide improved coverage between a base and a mobile driving in and out of tall buildings and other obstructions. He further claimed that a two or three bay setup would show significant gain over a typical GP at the same height.

For some reason the project was squashed like a bad tomatoe when the meeting of minds of several principals went south. Some have said it was just B. S. from the get go.

That Dominator antenna looks pretty nice, but I could not believe their hype about that one either. For sure that graphic they presented did not represent a real world view of a pattern unless it was mounted on the ground with an infinite ground plane or over salt water.

I have a high regard for the Sigma IV design noted in that ad, but I don't believe it would make that good of a pattern, sitting on the ground or 40 feet in the air.
 
As with any type polarization, there's nothing really earth-shattering with circular polarization. It certainly has a use. It also has it's draw-backs. I think you'll find that almost all circular polarization is done at VHF/UHF, none (or VERY little) at HF. The reason is that it's characteristics change because of propagation at different frequencies. Propagation just ain't the same at HF and VHF/UHF, so why should the antennas be the same?
Most of this sort of testing has already been done by the government at one time or another (I had to help pay for it so I'm @#$ sure gonna use it - LOL!). I would also think that very little of that testing has ever reached the general public. Not because it's 'secret' but because it was done quite a few years ago and I seriously doubt if anyone ever gets to the point of digitizing it for the internet, sort of, wish 'they' would, but ain't holding my breath.
Oh well, it's still fun so who cares!
- 'Doc
 

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