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Counterpoise

G

Gary SWEDE

Guest
Does anybody know about these? I have a friend that has a mobile antenna on a mast and I think that that he needs a groundplane on the bottom of the mast attached to he mast and bury a piece of wire about 6" in the earth. I think that this`will help his recieve but I would like to know how long it should be and if burying it about 6" deep is right. Thank You Very Much SWEDE


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The antenna itself needs radials at its feed point. I would say 4 nine foot radials should do fine. As for receive Im thinking they would not change anything but I could be wrong.
 
Gary SWEDE said:
Does anybody know about these? I have a friend that has a mobile antenna on a mast and I think that that he needs a groundplane on the bottom of the mast attached to he mast and bury a piece of wire about 6" in the earth. I think that this`will help his recieve but I would like to know how long it should be and if burying it about 6" deep is right. Thank You Very Much SWEDE



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Hello Swede 8) This link should help you and your freind out.
Design Your Own Ground Plane,,,Have a nice day :LOL: Coily
 
Gary,
A 'counterpoise' does the same thing as a 'groundplane' for a vertical antenna. There's usually just one counterpoise where a groundplane usually has more than two elements. They 'do' about the same things and are usually the same length. The counterpoise's and a groundplane's radials raise the iinput impedance of the antenna according to they're position relative to the 'vertical' portion of the antenna. The greater the angle between vertical and counterpoise/groundplane radials, the greater the impedance, until the angle is about 180 degrees. A groundplane or a counterpoise should be at the feed point of the antenna, not down the pole. An antenna using either a counterpoise or a groundplane doesn't need to be 'grounded' for 'RF' purposes (for safety/lightning protection, sure, but not for 'RF') it is 'complete' in it's self.

Is a counterpoise 'better' than a groundplane? Not really, neither is a groundplane 'better' than a counterpoise. Just depends on how/where the anenna is mounted and what is easiest to 'do'. Your friend's mobile antenna is only half of an antenna. The car body would normally be it's other half. To use it as it's being used, he should add either a groundplane or a counterpoise to the base of the antenna as the 'other half'. The length of groundplane radials or a counterpoise is the same length as the vertical portion of the antenna, or slightly longer. Length isn't very critical and depends on the environment.

- 'Doc
 
"A 'counterpoise' does the same thing as a 'groundplane' for a vertical antenna." that's because they ARE the SAME THING!

"There's usually just one counterpoise where a groundplane usually has more than two elements." bullpucky.

counterpoise: A CONDUCTOR or system of CONDUCTORS used as a substitute for earth or ground in an antenna system.
 
Gary SWEDE said:
Does anybody know about these? I have a friend that has a mobile antenna on a mast and I think that that he needs a groundplane on the bottom of the mast attached to he mast and bury a piece of wire about 6" in the earth. I think that this`will help his recieve but I would like to know how long it should be and if burying it about 6" deep is right. Thank You Very Much SWEDE



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Hello gary the link i posted works great but,I would also suggest 3 ground planes bent down
around 30-35 degrees of angle on your ground planes under the mobile antenna,now if you are using a 102" whip this will work very well and give you a near perfect 1.1.1 -1.2.1 match,if your using like a 6-7 firestick or tigerstick type helixal wire wrapped antenna with a top load you will need to adjust the angle of the ground/counterpoise angle of the planes.But with a little tuning and adjustments you should be able to get a good performing station..This is the same basic antenna as the 1/4 wave starduster antenna.

WWW.MRCOILY.COM
MRCOILY@AOL.COM
 
Freecell,
There is such a thing as 'common usage' for terms. As such, 'counterpoise' and 'groundplane' are not the same things, although they 'do' basically the same things.
As to the number of elements in a typical groundplane, when was the last time you saw one with two elements or less, other than when one was broken?
Try not to be any sillier than you have too, okay?
- 'Doc
 
Any time I have heard or read a reference to a counterpoise it was in reference to a SINGLE wire usually 1/4 wavelength long while a groundplane referenced mutiple wires or solid surface as in a car body.Is it just me or does it seem that freecell just can't wait to jump on Doc's posts for some petty reason? :roll:
 
the words counterpoise and ground plane are used interchangeably in common usage. they mean the same thing. deal with it. all you're doing by insisting that they're somehow different is adding to the confusion.

http://www.atis.org/tg2k/_counterpoise.html

Both terms are equivalent but you will find below their accurate definition by ARRL.

*Ground plane : A system of conductors placed beneath an elevated antenna to serve as an earth ground. Also see counterpoise.

*Counterpoise : A wire or group of wires mounted close to the ground, but insulated from ground, to form a low-impedance, high capacitance path to ground. Used at MF and HF to provide an RF ground for an antenna. Also see ground plane.

*so if there is ANY difference between the two it would be that a ground plane is elevated above the ground while a counterpoise is used close to the ground. they both accomplish the same thing. the word counterpoise means "balance" and it just so happens that this is one of the functions of a counterpoise or ground plane, to provide a balance, in this case a balance in the antenna currents between the antenna and either earth ground or any substitute or artificial ground.

here's another example of just how interchangeable they are. this is worded almost the exact opposite of the paragraph above.

*In fact both definitions are correct. But most of the time, we speak of radials when the wires are laid evenly on the ground, and of counterpoise when the antenna is erected a few meters above the ground and surrounded by an artificial ground plane made of thin tubing. Of course it will be never false to say that a ground plane antenna is surrounded with a system of radials.

that's confusing enough as it is already. read all four references marked with *. they contradict each other yet they are all found in the same page. that's as interchangeable as you can get.

"when was the last time you saw one with two elements or less, other than when one was broken?"

when building an elevated quarter wave vertical for fixed operation using ONE round piece of sheet metal with a 1/4 wave length radius for the 'groundplane' 'counterpoise' for 2 meter operation. then i made a radial cut in the sheet metal and gradually overlapped the two edges and used the conical shape of the surface to obtain a 50 ohm match to the feedline. ("radial droop effect") when the appropriate amount of overlap and the attendant "cone shape" were achieved, i simply cut off the excess and soldered the seam together in place. i don't recommend this procedure for 27 mhz.

so a counterpoise and a groundplane ARE the same thing and they perform the same function, with the only distinction between the two being the particular application, either ground mounted or elevated, and even then the terms are still used interchangeably. in any event, any difference between the two of them has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the number of conductors.

now all 3 of you can go gang up on someone else. i know what i'm talking about.
 
The mast will act as a ground, but yes a mobil antenna requires a ground plane at the base of the antenna to work properly. Three nine foot elements would be ideal but not required, 4 1/2 foot would be enough as long as they are 90 deg. from the antenna or they could pull three nine foot wires down from the base of the antenna like a xmas tree. You can't ask for much from a mobil antenna and its not worth going into a heated debate about high tech antenna design especially for someone who just wants to get on the air. I'm sure if they wanted this much information they would also want to put up a 7 element yagi at least 100' in the air so they could try to talk 100 miles or so on a good night. Good luck with it hope this helps.

Jonbah
1st class Mud Duck
 

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