flat-stock-, as opposed to round-coil mobile antenna....

[davegrantsr]

just a thought....and it doesn't happen often, but WHY NOT? i'm not concerned with arguing that a 108" whip isthe BEST bar NOTHING else, but about how efficient an 'open-air-coil' antenna can be made. we get back to the inevitable 'is the difference, for better or worse, even noticeable?' obviously, longer is better( ) but, moreover, the BIG-BOY, shootout/high power antennas of the monkeymade-type use FLAT stock, as opposed to round, for the coil. what if kale or coily made THEIR version using flat instead of tubed aluminum for the coil? heck, even the old, original, rf limited-distributed 'super penetrator' mobile antenna used SQUARE coil windings for 'better capture area, more ouput, and other fancy industry terms'.
this question was brought up between a certain 25kw suburban owner as we mounted HIS antennas and compared them to my predator on my #2, low power everyday driver truck. would there be any benefit, however noticeable, to making the coil on, say a predator 10k, FLAT??????

 

[BIONIC_TEXAN88]

i am not sure, but have heard that rf travels along the edges of the antenna, so thats why they say a flatter, bigger surface area beats a smaller surface area antenna. I am not sure about all this, chances are, there isnt much at all difference in the 10k and monkey.

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

What piece of BS theory says that flat or square is better than round? The larger the surface area the lower the resistance so therefore the higher the efficiency and lower the lose.Simple enough. What if a piece of hollow tubing is used? The RF has two surfaces to flow on,the inside of the tube and the outside of the tube.Flat or square stock still has just the outside surface area.If a large flat stock was used versus a small round tube then it may be equal but otherwise........

Beside,we are splitting hairs here anyway.Even at high power simply substituting a flat or square stock coil over a round one will not make any differance if the surface area is the same.

 

[BOOTY MONSTER]

i dont know enough to know what the correct answer is . but i do know mr.coily use to use a flat coil but now they use a round coil and it look like a 10k clone .
ive got a 10k and its nicely constructed and does a good job . id like to try one of those power stick 2 antennas . theyre a clone of the vanort power stick antennas .

 

[Switch Kit]

This is what I would call shoot'in the shit. Wouldn't know what to do with 25K to begin with. Would more then likely electrocute myself to death. Or wake up one morning with scabs all over my body. Electricity travels on the out side of wire , so in comes the multi-stranded multi-stranded super elastic fantastic hook up cable . theroy = so the electricity travels all the way through it per each strand of multi-stranded fantastic hook up cable all the way through, giving the amps that are surely needed. So now we go to the antenna farm , flat , round , or even squred coiled goodies , Is it really going to matter a whole hell of lot what shape the coil is especially putting the deadly 25K through it ? More then likely nothing to write home to mom about.(HEY ! Maybe they could come up with some kind of stranded type coil system ? if it would really make a differents ?) I thank the RF God's for my Pee-Wee set up and the once makers of the Wilson 1000/5000 modeled antenna's. They sure made life easy on me. (coiled or not) just never had much room on any vehical for a good ole 102' SS. DAMN !! It Already looks like a RC car as it is. Just shoot'in the shit.

 

[W5LZ]

The part about the B.S. is certainly true. When you are talking about a coil, it's resulting inductance is what matters, NOT it's radiation characteristics which are no more than an equal length of wire (vs. the length of the coil). Flat, round, hexagonal, trapezoidal, or more sides than you can count, it makes no practical difference in radiation. It can make a huge difference in inductance. But, any more, or less inductance than necessary is just unnecessary. It'd make more sense to argue about the coil's color... Pink! Pink is best.
- 'Doc

 

[davegrantsr]

QRN, myself & mr 'x' were just kinda 'thinking out loud' when we pondered the thought. we were not considering wattage in the equation-whether his 25kw suburban, my 3.5kw #2 truck, or a measly little 4 pill-just WOULD THERE BE ANY PERFORMANCE DIFFERENCE if you took a 7/8" piece of flat whatever and coiled THAT, or rolled it into a predator-sized round tube THEN coiled it.
THEREFORE, if YOUR final statement IS correct, and there is NO visible area difference in capture area, regardless of shape, kale's small, less-wind-resistant predator would perform exactly the same as a monkeymade-style antenna of exactly the same dimensions, just with a different shape to the coil.
and, finally, that would mean anybody who wants to spend more then $15 for a steel whip would be best off with a predator, rather then the heavy, high windload, tear-a-hole-through-the-roof, put-out-the-windshield-behind-you, monkey-sized hunk of metal.
of course my #1 truck with a 3 element beam @ 24' out does either antenna.......but, we were just thinking

 

[davegrantsr]

while i was thinking the prior response, 'LZ's post must have appeared.....oh well. that was what i was looking for! yes, tuning a 1/4 wave antenna on a vehicle with an antenna analyzer can be tricky, especially for the uninitiated. location changes things as well as the spacing of the coils! tighten them up or spread them farther apart and you can get the 259 to read whatever you want, as long as it stays on 27.025 where you started.....
as for color, how about FUSCHIA? it comes from the same family that develops PINK, and besides, i just like SAYING it

 

[W5LZ]

To muddy these waters just a bit more, there is only one good electrical reason for 'loading' any antenna. To make it 'fit' it's application, make it shorter. After that, it's cosmetic.
Antenna length DOES play a very important part in how/where it radiates. Longer is better, to some ridiculous point, especially for mobiles. Really does change it's radiation characteristics/pattern.
Coils. Diameter does more than length does, makes a bigger difference in the resulting inductance. So 'fatter' coils are typically better than 'skinny' coils, to some ridiculous point. (If you have to get a DOT permit 'cuz it's a 'wide load', then it's just too wide.)
- 'Doc

[Hollow glass coil form. Fill with mercury. Have some kind'a floating doogee on top of the column of mercury to make contact with the rest of the antenna. Spend at least 40K to get something that'd pull that monster! Also have enough speed to stay up with traffic and run from them guys with the straight-jacket! ]

 

[cbshack]

I would like to see a test of Coily, Monkey, Predator, 55, Stargun, Stryker and maybe a few others. The shaft would have to be the same to make it fair. Compare to a reference like a 102 inch whip. Than maybe a K40 vs. Wilson 2000 vs 5000 would be good. Wilson posts a test on their website with Q being tested. They did compare the old K40 trucker so that is not fair. Than maybe compare those antennas to the open aire ones mentioned above. I wonder if we could get Pop Comm to test. It certainly would be interesting....

 

[W5LZ]

I'd like to see that sort of comparison too, but I'm not going to hold my breath. Couple of reasons for that. 'Pop Comm' being commercial, and selling advertisement to support it's self, isn't going to 'bad mouth' anyone who buys their advertising (doubt if any of the other commercial places would either. Maybe 'Consumer Report', if you can get them interested enough... good luck).
Another reason is, that for such a comparison to be accurate it would be very expensive and limited. Limited because it wouldn't take into consideration all the various methods/ways of mounting the antennas and 'what'/where they would be mounted on. I drive a very common vehicle, but what about those that drive a sort of 'uncommon' one? Huge differences possible there.
I've found that for me, in most cases but certainly not all of them, an antenna that the radio is 'comfortable' with, that I'm 'comfortable with (also meaning that I can afford), is going to work -about- as well as anything else will. Everything has disadvantages at some point. The 'trick' is to stay away from that particular "point" when possible. The only "perfect" antenna is one that changes to fit conditions instantly and continuously, all by it's self. If I ever find such a thingy, I'll never tell anyone! Who'd believer me, and -=-I-=- want to be the only one who has such a miracle! I ain't holding my breath on that one either...
- 'Doc

If you can get someone to put out the work and effort and money to do such testing I certainly wanna see it! Good luck...

Wait a minute!!

Master Chief already has a lot of antennas. I ain't ~that~ old, so I'll probably live long enough for him to do all that testing. Now all you have to do is talk him into doing it!

 

[BOOTY MONSTER]

i know.....i know.... . this guy isnt the most knowledgable and its not done under labratory conditions but its the closest i could find for a review for cbshack and W5LZ .
http://www.cbradiomagazine.com/Feb 2007/CB Radio Antennas - Which one is right for you.htm

 

[W5LZ]

BOOTY MONSTER,
Good information, but still limited as to overall performance. The radio should certainly be comfortable with those antennas. Doesn't say anything about how they radiate, their performance. But, considering the comparative sizes of those antennas, I doubt that there will a huge difference between them. If the owner is 'comfortable' with any of them then they accomplish what they should, mostly.
- 'Doc

 

[bushwacker]

I don't know if anyone said this already.... but most likly the most noticable difference you might see between a wide flat coil design and and round stock is bandwidth.
Anytime you increase surface area ( not length) you increase bandwidth. This will yeild a better match over more channels.

With commercial vhf antennas, they will make a regular dc ground tunable vhf antenna and a wide band version of the same antenna. With the wideband version you can get a tolerable match on all channels (freqs) within a 20 meg spread.
The main difference between the 2 antennas is the material used to make the loading coil... the wideband antennas coil is made of flat wider material.

If you had a piece of flat steel 102 to 108 inches long and 4 inches wide and hooked it up as an antenna to your radio.... you would notice that you had a better "flatter" match accross more freqs than you would if you were using a regular 102 inch whip.
Even though the 102 inch whip and 102 inch piece of flat steel are the same length, the flat steel will give you a better "flat " match accross the band than the 102... the flat steel has more bandwidth.
Its the same thing with cb antenna coils as it is with vhf antenna coils or any type of antenna.... increase the width of the material the coil or antenna is made of ( surface area) and you can get more bandwidth.

BUT... you also get more windload....

Its just a rule of thumb... more coil material means more bandwidth... flat stock OR roundstock it doesn't matter... the one with the most surface area will have more bandwidth. A metal flagpole will have more bandwidth than a piece of wire the same length.
There is only so much bandwidth you can get without having to go with other means. All this is taken into consideration when these guys make these antennas so they put out a good quality product.
If you go from an antenna with a coil made of thin roundstock to one with a coil made of wide flat metal ( or larger roundstock) you will notice a difference in bandwidth. It may be sight in some instance ( depending on antennas) but it will be there.

 

[Hc714]

If you had a piece of flat steel 102 to 108 inches long and 4 inches wide and hooked it up as an antenna to your radio.... you would notice that you had a better "flatter" match accross more freqs than you would if you were using a regular 102 inch whip.
Even though the 102 inch whip and 102 inch piece of flat steel are the same length, the flat steel will give you a better "flat " match accross the band than the 102... the flat steel has more bandwidth.
Its the same thing with cb antenna coils as it is with vhf antenna coils or any type of antenna.... increase the width of the material the coil or antenna is made of ( surface area) and you can get more bandwidth.

BUT... you also get more windload....

You could mount it sideways, that might lesson the bend due to wind load.