I'm really not THAT dumb.

[W5LZ]

I left myself wide open with that title, didn't I?

This is a 'rant' about one of the local auto-supply houses. It deals with an 'Optima' battery not keeping a charge. Been doing that 'discharge' thingy over short periods of time for several months now. When it got to the point where I couldn't start the truck with it sitting for more than a day, I finally got fed up with it.
So, about a week ago I went back to the store and complained about it. They were very respectful and wanted to do a test. Sure, why not. They have a computerized doo-hicky for Optima batteries. Goes through who knows what procedures, nothing on, everything on, and whatever. The test showed that while the battery was not fully charged, there appeared to be nothing wrong with it. They offered me a 'loaner' battery while they charged mine. Now that's something I haven't heard before! They said it takes a particular 'way' of charging an Optima battery, my charger probably wouldn't do it. Decided, nah, I'll just do it my self. Drove home had the thing on a charger for over 8 hours. It's not a 'trickle charger'. Did fine the next day.
Couple of days later had to charge it again. Not happy. But, figured maybe I just didn't leave the thing on the charger long enough, you know?
Started to the grocery store night before last, dead battery. NOT happy, you don't wanna eat my cooking.
Yesterday went back to the store, told the guy we were going to have to do something about this battery, I'm fed up with it. (This is the good part!) The 'kid' waiting the counter went and got the manager. Went through the same testing routine, showed okay. Said something was 'on' to discharge the battery. Told him that yes, there was a cell phone charger that's usually on when the truck is parked. He said, well there you go. Told him that there was no phone connected so that the only current draw was an LED on the charger, how would that run down an 800 Ahr battery in less than a day? I don't remember his explanation for that, but it did not make sense. Also went through a "did I know that..." for a while. Finally told him that I had done quite a bit of research about these Optima batteries in the last few days, that I probably knew more about them than he did. Also that I have been dealing with electrical and electronic things for longer than he'd been alive. I ain't HAPPY, what are 'we' going to do about it? Started on the 'loaner' battery again. Said I remember that part of this movie, I ain't sitting through it again. Manager disappeared, the 'kid' said he couldn't do anything about it, I'd have to wait on the manager to get back. Okay, I'll wait.
There are normally 4 people working in this place. The 'kid' was the only one who made an appearance while I was waiting. About 15 minutes later the manager got back. Said something to the 'kid' and disappeared in the back. The 'kid' was suddenly very polite (not that he wasn't before) and we went through the paper work for an exchange. He even put the battery in the truck for me!
So far, I'm happy, I think. I'll wait and see. I did notice something about the place. It's less than a year old, just put it in. Did have several people working there that knew what they were doing, at least with customers. Odd, they weren't there any more. Hmm, bunch of possibilities there, not such a biggy, I thought. Now I wonder.
End of rant.

I'm really amazed that the 'twit' of a manager would think that I'd fall for his 'line'. If you look at the stupid truck, there are enough antennas on it, and enough gadgets in it, that I would think he might have some hint that I just might know what the @#$$ was going on. I think that they've lost a customer.
- 'Doc

 

[HiDef]

Auto repair people are desensitized to know-it-alls.

They deal with them daily.

Time will tell weather you are really the dumb one.

In the meantime you could do a parasitic draw test on your vehicle.

Disable the underhood lamp, shut everything off. Remove the negative battery lead, insert your 0-10 DC ammeter in series with the removed cable and the battery negative terdminal. Leave your little cigarette lighter power charger connected

Do not skip this step - short across the ammeter with a cliplead or something similar. This charges any capacitors on the load end. Remove short and read current.

Anything over 175 mills will kill the battery over a few days. Over time it will make the battery into junk due to repeated deep cycling.

Repeat with your little harmless charger disconnected.


Trouble tree branch one:
Buy everyone at the shop lunch.

Trouble tree branch two:
Continue to carry jumper cables around because your replacement battery will probably die again at the worst possible time.


Remember the definition of insanity. Doing everything the same way but expecting different results. This only works with computers and some women.

 

[Dealer]

Welcome to the world of computer testers pre programed at the directions
of the retailers

I will guess Auto Zone being the retailer since a optima battery, but maybe not just a guess

I am sure you have a red top and not a yellow top ?

I had two yellow tops when i was still in the car business, they were take offs at 35.00
each. Lasted several years with a 180 amp altenator but being a deep cycle battery were
always a little soft cranking that ol diesel.

New ones I noticed at auto zone (yellow ones) were a 165.00 each retail Geezzzz

If i were to buy new ones they would be red tops, but heck these 1000/875cca from
wally world have been doing fine. 3 years free and 9 years total Now thats a deal

BTW, we have the same BS checkers, but I keep a old one under the counter at least
i did....

Dec. 15th will know if i can ever work at that again, or much of anything for that matter.


Regards,
John

 

[Sonwatcher]

If you look at the stupid truck, there are enough antennas on it, and enough gadgets in it, that I would think he might have some hint that I just might know what the @#$$ was going on.

Doc, he would have taken you serious if is wasn't for the aluminum foil hat !

Reminds me of a 72 Malibu I bought. The dealer inspected it, did the paperwork and sent me on my way. Sometime later there came a time that I needed to hit the horn. No "honk" took place . I looked under the hood and saw the problem. I took it back to the dealer and told them the horn didn't work and wondered how they inspected it without the horn working ? The mechanic got all gruff and stated it worked when they inspected it. I waited till he opened the hood and peaked in and let him know as he was looking that "there isn't a horn in it" . That was the end of his side of the conversation and I waited while he put a new horn in it.

 

[SR385]

Yeah I was convinced my OEM battery was dead after four years etc....so I replaced it...to find out my antenna tuner in the car was drawing half an amp all the time when the car was off....

Radio gear likes to draw current even when 'off' and if you have it direct wired guess what?

Meanwhile I could have used that old battery for shack backup power...but I already tossed it.

 

[W5LZ]

The aluminum foil cap is a liner in my regular cap. I didn't take it off so they couldn't have seen it, so there!


Did some checking. The manager is a former manager of another auto-supply house. I know who'z the present manager and think I can guess why the guy left (or was asked to leave?).


Current draw with the key off is a constant 10 mA, with a surge of 30 mA every 30 minutes. So tell me how long an 800 Ahr battery will normally last with that kind of draw. I'll bet it's longer than 2 days with a full charge (which the @#$ thing did have).
I'm actually guessing about the 10 mA thingy, it's probably less than that. Just too lazy to look it up. It's a timing circuit by the way. The 30 mA draw is for a total of 1.15 seconds.
- 'Doc

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

Are you sure the problem is not with the charging system in your truck? My father just went thru that last month. The alternator was charging but nothing what it should have been but just enough to prevent the warning light from coming on. On long drives the battery would charge up or even if he put it on a charger but on short trips to town etc. he would take more out of the battery than the alternator would put in. After a few days the truck would not start. The battery was fine,he just needed a new alternator.

 

[W5LZ]

I can only go by what the gauge says (no idiot light), and by it, the battery is typically getting 14 volts when the motor is running. Didn't bother with the fractions of a volt over 14, figured if it can't charge at 14 volts, something's wrong anyway. Had that situation before... remembered the results before opening my mouth with the complaints.
- 'Doc

 

[BJ radionut]

Been There Doc!

Well here my less than 2 cents worth Doc...yes there can be some one else cheap as you...HI!
Some years ago went through similar problem.The Mfg's(GM/Ford...etc.) on some whim to reduce cost in manufacturing(smaller batteries/alternators...etc.)added this little item that is called a "Charging Relay"...Theses little marvels are to "cut-off" the charging system under heavy load conditions...starting/AC/Heaters running at max etc...if these little devils have an open or weak coil or bad voltage sensor, guess what...no charging! They can show just fine setting in the shop or parking lot but under typical operation they don't friggin work! Thus the battery never gets the charge it should. You can no longer believe the gages on any GM(last 10 yrs or so) Guess what the gage panel comes from a totally different fuse bus panel than the charging system comes from.
My GM truck has 2 bus panels...1 under the hood/1 under the dash...totally different feed systems from the battery. You can guess if yours is similar if your battery cable has more than 1 lead...ex. 1 big cable/1 or more smaller cables at the battery terminal. I am just guessing but bet yours has more than 1.

I am going to start something here but going directly to the battery for radio power or "add-on" devices can screw up the whole sensor system!
Hence my rigs are tapped off the bus panel under the hood with #8 super-flex cable and not the battery or bus panel under the dash.

Not for sure this little "charging relay" is your answer but something maybe to think about...Ford does things slightly different I believe their's is attached to the starter solenoid(or built in)...GM mounts some of their's on the fire-wall. Not sure what other maker's have done, but did go through a couple different batteries (H/D NAPA batteries) on my better half's Saturn in just like 3 years....changed this little "black box" sensor near the alternator....guess what?...same battery now going on 5 years!
She's getting worried and wants me to change it again...OH technology what have we done!
Good Luck
All the Best
BJ

 

[packrat]

Most late model cars and trucks have the charging voltage controlled by the computer / ecm/pcm/bcm.
I have seen way too many problems caused in modern autos, (80 and newer), caused by add on electrical items such as alarms, stereos, etc, to ever want to add anything to my jeep. In every case, the removal of the add on fixed the problem for good. I also run Optima type batteries, and have never had a bad one, but that doesnt mean it doesnt happen.
As far as the counter people at the local parts store, they dont hire them for thier knowledge, but for how cheap and how many hours they will work.(ME) I need 2 feet of 3/8 fuel line please. (them) OK , what is it going on?) I have known only about a dozen really good parts people, both women and men, and every one of them left the business, sooner than later because of being treated like crap.

PR

 

[SR385]

10 mA to 30 mA doesn't seem problematic to me. I had around 800mA heh.

IANAAEG

I am not an auto electric guy.

 

[Nursecosmo]

I don't know what vehicle you have but at least Jeep and probably some other manufacturers put some red top Optimas in their new vehicles which were special spec units (read far less than their normal amp hour rating). The red top in my 05 Liberty CRD was discharged completely by a fuzz buster which was left on for a week while the vehicle sat unstarted. After that it wouldn't hold a charge for more than a day. It was only a year and a half old. Most other Jeep diesel owners who frequent one of the other forums I am on have had similar issues with the Jeep spec red top. After a few thousand of those factory installed red tops going bad after only a year or two, it was discovered that by bringing up to charge with a trickle charge only(contrary to conventional AGM wisdom), they would be restored to there previous capacity. Of course, by then, I had bought a new $150.00 Auto zone one with the standard CCA rating. It has not failed me in two years now.

 

[mackmobile43]

Lead acid for me thank you as they do not have a brain and therefore are free from any memory ailments.

Let the flow of electrons be with you.

 

[Nursecosmo]

Lead acid for me thank you as they do not have a brain and therefore are free from any memory ailments.

Let the flow of electrons be with you.

Of course they have a brain.

"Lead acid batteries designed for starting automotive engines are not designed for deep discharge. They have a large number of thin plates designed for maximum surface area, and therefore maximum current output, but which can easily be damaged by deep discharge. Repeated deep discharges will result in capacity loss and ultimately in premature failure, as the electrodes disintegrate due to mechanical stresses that arise from cycling. A common misconception is that starting batteries should always be kept on float charge. In reality, this practice will encourage corrosion in the electrodes and result in premature failure. Starting batteries should be kept open-circuit but charged regularly (at least once every two weeks) to prevent sulfation." Lead-acid battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[74IN]

I have known only about a dozen really good parts people, both women and men, and every one of them left the business, sooner than later because of being treated like crap.

The local "old school" parts persons are very sharp.

They have dealt with real mechanics for so long, most can trouble shoot your problem when you ask for a specific part.

Patronise them, rather than the slightly cheaper chain stores.