Modern vs vintage lab/test equipment.

[JDE]

Been around the forum for a few weeks now, while learning radio diagnostic and repair. Starting with cheap CBs from ebay, long way to go, already told the story in another thread.

Anyway, everyone recommends proper lab/test equipment such as a 'scope, signal generator, frequency counter, spectrum anaylzer, or even of those real nice service monitors that serves several roles. I can sit here replacing bad caps and diodes all day long, but there's more to it than that and to get there I need better gear.

The problem I'm running in to is that most good techs these days are, for lack of a better description, old school and therefore recommened the tried and true old school gear. So folks trying to get in to the hobby in 2022, like me, are forced to scour ebay trying to find this old gear, running 400+ per device, some well north of a grand now...if you can even find it. The days of getting a tested/calibrated HP signal gen or Tektronix 2ch 100mhz scope for 100 dollars are long gone. That old hardware got more experience and rarer.

Surely there is gear out there made after the 70s and 80s that can perform those same tasks and aren't nearly as expensive or hard to find? I'm just trying to learn and do this as a hobby and favor to to buddies in the local radio club, so there's no justification for me to spend thousands of dollars on lab-grade equipment older than I am.

 

[TM86]

The test equipment I've bought off eBay I got because it would perform the functions I thought I would need, and it was relatively cheap at the time.

The stuff that doesn't fit that profile are a Rigol DS1102E Oscilloscope I bought new somewhere online (probably eBay), and a Klein Tools MM400 multimeter I bought at Home Depot.

For now my watt meter is an old RadioShack SWR/watt meter I've had since the 80's. It's not highly accurate, or really accurate at all, but it can tell the difference between RF output and no RF output.

Would I like the TekTronix scope, the Fluke 77, and the LP-500? Sure, but I don't need those to do what I do. (I'd buy the LP-500 if I had the cash. I like shiny toys.)

The idea is to figure out what you actually need, what your budget is, and then is there anything within that budget? And by what you need, I mean what function do you need it to perform, not make and model.

 

[JDE]

I want to be able to align/tune a radio, beyond just identifying/replacing components. What I mean by that is is calibration...making sure it's transmitting and receiving on the right frequencies, adjusting its receive sensitivity, seeing and cleaning up its waveform, etc. Most of that requires either a signal generator, a frequency counter, or both.

My 'kit' so far consists of a Klein MM600, Astatic SWR meter, MFJ cross-needle SWR/watter meter, Bird 43, and a Sinnader 3. I haven't used the latter two devices yet as I am still learnin' the ropes, only reason I jumped on those was because their prices were too good to pass up and both were checked/bench tested.

 

[loosecannon]

Electronics repair is expensive.
that's the bottom line.

any test equipment that is worth a darn and is new, is going to be expensive because of what it is.

the only reason the old school test equipment is somewhat affordable is because it's old.

the deals are out there, it just takes time to find them, and ebay is one of the main places to find that old gear.
you might check out any surplus auctions in your area as they can be good places to get retired test gear.

you can get an HP8656 on ebay for a couple hundred bucks, but they are beasts and are going to be expensive to ship.

You can get a scope for around the same price, but unless you know how to repair and calibrate electronics, you won't know whether it was a good deal or not.

freq counters can be had for super cheap, but what's the point if you dont know the calibration status? So you can make all your friends' radios off frequency by the same amount?

but you know what is cheap?

books.

THIS is where people should start when they want to get into electronics repair, but sadly most don't want to actually learn what's going on, and just want to jump in and start turning screws.

Want to work on old radios?
great!
but you'd better have a bunch of them lying around for parts.

Want to work on new radios?
great!
but you'd better get really good with a hot air station and SMD soldering.

the real nitty gritty truth is that it takes 10-20 years to get good at this stuff and to have any real perspective, and it's going to cost thousands of dollars over that time.

Every single time someone says to me, "i have a local friend who fixes CB's" i cringe just a little because i know that 90% of the time that means that someone on a CB radio convinced another person on a CB radio that they knew what they were doing and can handle whatever is wrong with said person's radio.

I usually get these radios AFTER that local has lifted the traces, bodged a few parts in, and cracked half the tuning slugs.

then i have to tell the person how much its going to cost to replace all the things that the other person screwed up.

because many of these parts are not made anymore, and never will be again, i don't let them go cheap, and people quickly learn what the true value of their radio is.
most times they do want to get the radio working because they like it, but sometimes they just say the heck with it and shelve it.

My attitude has changed over the years and these days i tell people, "if you want to repair CB radios, but aren't willing to read a bunch of books that don't deal specifically with CB radio, then you're never going to be anything but a hack."
LC

 

[groundwire]

If you just want to play around the old test gear will work. It can get you in the ballpark and nothing more. If you want to align radio transceivers properly and do other high end circuit design etc, you have to have the modern gear and yes, it is VERY expensive. Trust me i know. My bench cost me $10k and thats not even the BEST equipment, just close to it. ouch!

 

[tramd]

Knowledge is the most important thing you need. Without that, you will never be able to do repairs quickly and efficiently or understand how to use the test equipment properly. There is a lot more to electronics than most people realize, thus the need for a formal education in it. The equipment that was used back in the day worked just fine and still does today. CB radio signals are analog and older analog measuring equipment actually is better to use in some instances than digital equipment, especially when it comes to scopes. New equipment is expensive, but there is a lot of equipment from the later 80's and up that was top quality and can be had for reasonable prices as compared to new equipment. It may not be as compact as the new stuff, but was probably better built and can be fixed easier. The problem with old equipment is it may need some work and calibration, but that takes the know how to fix it, and then it has to be calibrated. It depends on who or where you by it from as to its condition and readiness to use. Most start off with older equipment due to cost, plus if they realize electronic repair is just not their thing, they don't have as much invested into it. It gets expensive to stay in it and keep up with the latest technology. Companies I used to work for spent considerable amounts to keep everyone educated on the latest technology and buying the equipment needed to diagnose, repair and test it. For home use working on old CB radios, you don't need the latest and greatest, but it needs to work good and be accurate. For CBs there are complete test stations that companies such as B&K built. Everything needed to test CBs were in one or two pieces of equipment. They come up for sale occasionally. Also, there are software programs that can be used in place of actual test equipment. Scopes, generators, spectrum analyzers, etc can be found online to download. You will have to hunt for schematics of course, but many sites have those and there are the SAMS books. You will also have to learn how to read those schematics and understand what they are showing. You will need many tools, test leads, probes etc. As I and others said, the learning part comes first, like in any other profession. Without a decent understanding of it, troubleshooting and repair will be difficult. But as a hobbiest you can learn it and do your own repairs, and alignments, it just takes time. It's all about having fun!

 

[JDE]

Electronics repair is expensive.
that's the bottom line.

any test equipment that is worth a darn and is new, is going to be expensive because of what it is.

the only reason the old school test equipment is somewhat affordable is because it's old.

the deals are out there, it just takes time to find them, and ebay is one of the main places to find that old gear.
you might check out any surplus auctions in your area as they can be good places to get retired test gear.

you can get an HP8656 on ebay for a couple hundred bucks, but they are beasts and are going to be expensive to ship.

You can get a scope for around the same price, but unless you know how to repair and calibrate electronics, you won't know whether it was a good deal or not.

freq counters can be had for super cheap, but what's the point if you dont know the calibration status? So you can make all your friends' radios off frequency by the same amount?

but you know what is cheap?

books.

THIS is where people should start when they want to get into electronics repair, but sadly most don't want to actually learn what's going on, and just want to jump in and start turning screws.

Want to work on old radios?
great!
but you'd better have a bunch of them lying around for parts.

Want to work on new radios?
great!
but you'd better get really good with a hot air station and SMD soldering.

the real nitty gritty truth is that it takes 10-20 years to get good at this stuff and to have any real perspective, and it's going to cost thousands of dollars over that time.

Every single time someone says to me, "i have a local friend who fixes CB's" i cringe just a little because i know that 90% of the time that means that someone on a CB radio convinced another person on a CB radio that they knew what they were doing and can handle whatever is wrong with said person's radio.

I usually get these radios AFTER that local has lifted the traces, bodged a few parts in, and cracked half the tuning slugs.

then i have to tell the person how much its going to cost to replace all the things that the other person screwed up.

because many of these parts are not made anymore, and never will be again, i don't let them go cheap, and people quickly learn what the true value of their radio is.
most times they do want to get the radio working because they like it, but sometimes they just say the heck with it and shelve it.

My attitude has changed over the years and these days i tell people, "if you want to repair CB radios, but aren't willing to read a bunch of books that don't deal specifically with CB radio, then you're never going to be anything but a hack."
LC

Fortunately I'm a few steps ahead of that "friend of a friend CB repairer" and not making those types of mistakes. I'm going in to this with a minor background in electronics, the ability to solder/desolder, read a schematic, identify and understand the role of most components, etc. I'm still trying to get past that 'hump' of understanding the RF circuits, and where to start based on symptoms. I did pick up Lou Franklin's books, still going through them for the first time. Also considering picking up the two or three ARRL 'beginners' books, heard good things about those. My ultimate goal is to learn on cheap CBs, then carry that over to amateur radios. There's no shortages of mobile 2m or dual band rigs suffering the same problems a lot of these CBs suffer...burnt diode here, lifted trace there, etc. I'm going for quality work here, not quantity, not crappy truck-stop mods, because I love this hobby and am also only doing this as a hobby, not a revenue stream or new job. I have a great career in IT that keeps me busy enough and pays the bills.

So my two hurdles are obtaining that understanding/science behind these radios and RF circuits, and getting test/alignment gear that I can trust. Since I'm still new to this hobby I certainly don't want to dive head first in to this and spend a few grand, I could very well realize 6 months from now that I don't want to do it anymore, or don't have the time due to work. That's what prompted the question of...is there modern and more affordable/easy to find gear out there I can use. If the answer is the old tried and true gear and waiting for the unicorn deals on tested/calibrated devices, then I guess I'll be keeping an eye out for those on ebay.

 

[JDE]

If you just want to play around the old test gear will work. It can get you in the ballpark and nothing more. If you want to align radio transceivers properly and do other high end circuit design etc, you have to have the modern gear and yes, it is VERY expensive. Trust me i know. My bench cost me $10k and thats not even the BEST equipment, just close to it. ouch!

That seems to be the recurring answer, the only gear you can trust is expensive modern equipment or old but tested/calibrated equipment. I've seen some folks pick up cheap chinse 'scopes or signal gens, and through testing confirm they were actually accurate...but I'm sure they just got lucky. If you buy 5 of those devices, you'll get 5 different results because there is no quality control during the assembly or calibration in those factories, making them not worth the risk. Plus I'm not too terribly interested in sending China more money.

 

[JDE]

Knowledge is the most important thing you need. Without that, you will never be able to do repairs quickly and efficiently or understand how to use the test equipment properly. There is a lot more to electronics than most people realize, thus the need for a formal education in it. The equipment that was used back in the day worked just fine and still does today. CB radio signals are analog and older analog measuring equipment actually is better to use in some instances than digital equipment, especially when it comes to scopes. New equipment is expensive, but there is a lot of equipment from the later 80's and up that was top quality and can be had for reasonable prices as compared to new equipment. It may not be as compact as the new stuff, but was probably better built and can be fixed easier. The problem with old equipment is it may need some work and calibration, but that takes the know how to fix it, and then it has to be calibrated. It depends on who or where you by it from as to its condition and readiness to use. Most start off with older equipment due to cost, plus if they realize electronic repair is just not their thing, they don't have as much invested into it. It gets expensive to stay in it and keep up with the latest technology. Companies I used to work for spent considerable amounts to keep everyone educated on the latest technology and buying the equipment needed to diagnose, repair and test it. For home use working on old CB radios, you don't need the latest and greatest, but it needs to work good and be accurate. For CBs there are complete test stations that companies such as B&K built. Everything needed to test CBs were in one or two pieces of equipment. They come up for sale occasionally. Also, there are software programs that can be used in place of actual test equipment. Scopes, generators, spectrum analyzers, etc can be found online to download. You will have to hunt for schematics of course, but many sites have those and there are the SAMS books. You will also have to learn how to read those schematics and understand what they are showing. You will need many tools, test leads, probes etc. As I and others said, the learning part comes first, like in any other profession. Without a decent understanding of it, troubleshooting and repair will be difficult. But as a hobbiest you can learn it and do your own repairs, and alignments, it just takes time. It's all about having fun!

I covered the knowledge part in an above post, so won't reply here about that.

You bring up a good point that I also made above, not investing too much because this may not end up being my 'thing.' It's more likely that it would be due to just plain not having the time because my job keeps me extremely busy and mentally exhausted pretty much all the time. However, I have a lot of drive and desire to learn this hobby and stick with it because it genuinely interests me, and sitting out at the workbench diagnosing/repairing a radio is like therapy to me. It's relaxing, I really do enjoy it and would love for it to become a weekend hobby.

I've been doing this for a few weeks now, so I'm definitely familiar with the hunt for schematics, block diagrams, SAMS books, got the few cbtricks mirror sites bookmarked. I have a pretty decent collection of radio-specific documents on my computer so far, haha. I've also posted a couple threads here when I got stuck on symptom/repair, and have been saved each time by Andy.

I have a decent collection of tools, good soldering station and supplies/accessories, several DMMs, etc. I'm working from a pretty solid baseline and my minor background in electronics, and already being a ham for 4+ years, is giving me a bit of a headstart but I'm still trying to tackle a pretty significant learning curve here.

The problem is I'm a hands-on learner and have no local elmer to look over my shoulder, and I'm at a point where I'm done with the "testing and replacing bad components" step...now I want to see what these radios are doing on a SINAD meter or scope, and be able to tune/align them, so I can continue that learning process. Reading books and watching videos helps a bit, but not as much as they would for the next guy, because again...I'm a hands on learner, I learn by doing.

 

[Cabover Bob]

There are quite a few listings here from what I would consider reputable persons.

https://swap.qth.com/

 

[JDE]

There are quite a few listings here from what I would consider reputable persons.

https://swap.qth.com/

For the most part, QTH swap has been known to be safe for the most part and I do watch for stuff on there. Problem is that a lot of stuff there is sold as "powers up, as-is". I don't have the know-how or the equipment to check and calibrate stuff like that, so I'd have to send it off to a calibration lab and I'm sure that's not cheap.

 

[Low_Boy]

I will keep this short because I am using my phone. If I feel the need I will elaborate later. I don't think you need the latest and greatest to fix cb radios as a Hobbie or sideline. Like loose cannon and tramd mentioned. And just keep in mind you are never going to make enough to pay this high tech equipment off doing this as a side line. Point #2 we are talking cb radio. Not rocket science.

 

[JDE]

I will keep this short because I am using my phone. If I feel the need I will elaborate later. I don't think you need the latest and greatest to fix cb radios as a Hobbie or sideline. Like loose cannon and tramd mentioned. And just keep in mind you are never going to make enough to pay this high tech equipment off doing this as a side line. Point #2 we are talking cb radio. Not rocket science.

I'm honestly not even remotely interested in doing diag/repairs for money. I want to do this for myself, because I enjoy being at the bench tinkering on this stuff and radios have always fascinated me, so I get 2x the enjoyment from it. If I ever got decent at it I'd just flip what I fix/align on ebay to fund the hobby/recoup what I've spent out of pocket.

If I get any sort of good at it, I'd like to take on the occasional repair for the guys in my local ham/ares club because we don't have anyone around here anymore to do that stuff. Even then I have no interest in charging them for it, beyond parts cost and maybe a cup of coffee for my trouble. 100% just wanting a hobby that I know I'll enjoy, and what I learn from this will help me be a better ham.