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thanks Marconi but the post i was looking for has the formula to scale the antenna for different bands.....it was 3 lots  like xxxx times the mhz for the ring.radials and radiator...i did take note at the time but i forgot what i named the file or which computer i saved it on  ...It may not even be in this thread it may be in Bobs an alternative viewpoint thread but as it take me 2 days to go through this one i think it was worth asking ...i suppose i could use my very basic primary school math and work it out from the 11m V4K... i want to make a 6m antenna