OUTPUT X'S 4

[Sonar]

I understand that one's output time's 4 will get you one s-unit more.
This is I'm assuming point to point local contact but will doubling your output from 750 watts to 1500 make a bigger difference while shooting skip?
Once again sorry for being verbose. Does it pay to purchase a 750 watt amp or would it be worth it to go with a 1500 watt amplifier if your main objective as to make DX contacts?

 

[222DBFL]

A good antenna setup would be more effective TBH. And probably cost a bit less as well. And it will keep any neigbors happy and also your other electronics at home. And it all depends on what band we are talking about as if there are no conditions it doesn't matter if you are running 10k of power, no one is hearing it on the other end if the conditions are just not there. With 100 watts and a good antenna setup you should be able to DX just fine. Now this is if we are talking base stations. Now a mobile is a little different, but the principle is still the same, no conditions, no go. JMHO. Save your money or invest into getting a good antenna setup. Again, JMO. I have been where you are at now and I will say since changing antennas, 100 watts is plenty of power as long as I can hear them I 99.9% of the time have no issue at all getting back to them. But it's all about being at the right place at the right time as well as having a decent antenna setup. Mine is or the best, but it does well for what it is. The Sirio vector 4K and an Icom 746 have made me many many contacts on 11m. Antenna base is at approx. 26-27ft. And boy even at this height it does a good job for me. 10-20 more feet and I'll call it quits. Yeah right. But for how it is setup, which is just with steel pipe, and being bolted to house and top of chimney.
Sorry to babble on, but just my experience will 11m DX, and using amps. Yes they can help when here are a bunch of people on the same freq trying to talk over each other, but the gain isn't that large even at 1500 watts. You see 2 s-units more to a received station whether it be local or DX. From 100 to 400 to 1600 watts, 2 s-units of signal. Is it worth the effort, it really. A good beam or dual polarity antenna like a quad or beam, would be best best. Get it up as high as you can. Anyways. JMO. Good day.

 

[Mustang 131]

I understand that one's output time's 4 will get you one s-unit more.
This is I'm assuming point to point local contact but will doubling your output from 750 watts to 1500 make a bigger difference while shooting skip?
Once again sorry for being verbose. Does it pay to purchase a 750 watt amp or would it be worth it to go with a 1500 watt amplifier if your main objective as to make DX contacts?

You'll hear people who can't run more 100 watts that it doesn't make any difference.
Truth is every DB makes a difference. It may not even move the needle. And keep in mind most S meters are WAY off in calibration.
I see it all the time when a few extra watts or kw's take care of ducks.

 

[vkrules]

Skip or local it's the same. Double your power and thats a 3db increase in signal .Most cb radios s meters are calibrated between 4 and 6db per s unit, so 3db twice the power is 1/2 a s point.
Most stations wont even notice the difference.Also thats only on tx and does nothing for rx so the station you are talking to has to be running similar power.
Now if you have 3db gain with an antenna, that improves tx and rx.
So lets say we have a beam with 10db gain and you are running 200watts. you now have a erp of 2kw or the same as a station running a 1/2 wave with 2kw .As well you have 10 db of gain on the rx.
Best bang for buck is the first 2 hundred watts or so . At this level You get an amp with about 10 to 13 db gain .After this 3db increase is going to cost you twice as much or more.
With beams a 2 el gets you about 5dbd and a 3 gets about 7dbd.Ater that to get another 3db you need an antenna twice the size. ( dont beat me up with exact details this is ball park only)
Also worth noting the difference between say a 3ft whip and a 3 el beam mounted at 20 ft can be 20 db or more.
So biggest difference is in the antenna .

 

[Road Squawker]

... go with a 1500 watt amplifier if your main objective as to make DX contacts?

If DX is your goal, then QRO is the way to go.

It's not about the S meter movement, it's ALL about SNR.

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

If DX is your goal, then QRO is the way to go.

It's not about the S meter movement, it's ALL about SNR.

I disagree with your first sentence and do agree with the second sentence. Working DX with just 100 watts is a piece of cake and the need for more than that is just not there unless you want to work EVERYTHING you hear and even then that will just not happen regardless if you have 2 Kw or not. When I started out on 11m all I had was stock power and a 5/8 wave groundplane. I worked all over North America, the Caribbean, and well into Europe with it. Later I upgraded to a beam and added Africa and South America but still with about 15 watts pep.Working DX without an amp is VERY doable and not hard if you have SSB which IMHO anyone serious about working DX should have SSB before they even consider an amp.

In regards to the S/N ratio, yes I agree however it has been my experience over the last 38 years of DXing that those times that REQUIRE a big amp to be heard over the other stations are not that common. Sure you have a better chance however it all depends on propagation. Here on the east coast of Canada my little 100 watts will pound into Europe just as well as a guy running 1Kw+ from somewhere on the northeast coast of the USA simply because I am generally one hop closer to the target which means approximately 10 dB less loss. Many times I have broken pile-ups over guys running USA legal limit for that very reason. Same into Africa where I have all water between us and someone in the mid-west area may have his first bounce over land. Yes S/N is the determining factor of whether you are heard or not but most times that amp can stay in the stand-by position unless the operator has an ego that needs stroking or wants to dominate a frequency.

 

[Road Squawker]

... unless you want to work EVERYTHING you hear....

yeah, perhaps I mis-understood his goals.

Personally, I tend to like (big) mono-band antennas,but that wasn't his question

 

[Sonar]

A good antenna setup would be more effective TBH. And probably cost a bit less as well. And it will keep any neigbors happy and also your other electronics at home. And it all depends on what band we are talking about as if there are no conditions it doesn't matter if you are running 10k of power, no one is hearing it on the other end if the conditions are just not there. With 100 watts and a good antenna setup you should be able to DX just fine. Now this is if we are talking base stations. Now a mobile is a little different, but the principle is still the same, no conditions, no go. JMHO. Save your money or invest into getting a good antenna setup. Again, JMO. I have been where you are at now and I will say since changing antennas, 100 watts is plenty of power as long as I can hear them I 99.9% of the time have no issue at all getting back to them. But it's all about being at the right place at the right time as well as having a decent antenna setup. Mine is or the best, but it does well for what it is. The Sirio vector 4K and an Icom 746 have made me many many contacts on 11m. Antenna base is at approx. 26-27ft. And boy even at this height it does a good job for me. 10-20 more feet and I'll call it quits. Yeah right. But for how it is setup, which is just with steel pipe, and being bolted to house and top of chimney.
Sorry to babble on, but just my experience will 11m DX, and using amps. Yes they can help when here are a bunch of people on the same freq trying to talk over each other, but the gain isn't that large even at 1500 watts. You see 2 s-units more to a received station whether it be local or DX. From 100 to 400 to 1600 watts, 2 s-units of signal. Is it worth the effort, it really. A good beam or dual polarity antenna like a quad or beam, would be best best. Get it up as high as you can. Anyways. JMO. Good day.

My iMax 2000 is at the height it is now is as good as it's gonna get (for me).
There's no doubt if I had the room for a beam it would've been up already. I see the difference a beam makes when monitoring dx.
Stations running the same output on similar hf transceivers and in close proximity to e
I wasn't sure if like the 4 x your output equals 1 s unit was the same for dxing like it is for point to point.
I kinda assumed it was and is but wasn't 100%.
Don't mind the rambling. 73

Skip or local it's the same. Double your power and thats a 3db increase in signal .Most cb radios s meters are calibrated between 4 and 6db per s unit, so 3db twice the power is 1/2 a s point.
Most stations wont even notice the difference.Also thats only on tx and does nothing for rx so the station you are talking to has to be running similar power.
Now if you have 3db gain with an antenna, that improves tx and rx.
So lets say we have a beam with 10db gain and you are running 200watts. you now have a erp of 2kw or the same as a station running a 1/2 wave with 2kw .As well you have 10 db of gain on the rx.
Best bang for buck is the first 2 hundred watts or so . At this level You get an amp with about 10 to 13 db gain .After this 3db increase is going to cost you twice as much or more.
With beams a 2 el gets you about 5dbd and a 3 gets about 7dbd.Ater that to get another 3db you need an antenna twice the size. ( dont beat me up with exact details this is ball park only)
Also worth noting the difference between say a 3ft whip and a 3 el beam mounted at 20 ft can be 20 db or more.
So biggest difference is in the antenna .

I've heard and seen the difference a beam makes.

yeah, perhaps I mis-understood his goals.

Personally, I tend to like (big) mono-band antennas,but that wasn't his question

My goal is to learn. Are the questions I ask because I want to apply the answers? Not al the time but I do want to lean from people in the know.
I'm tired of asking on air and getting the same chicken bander misinformation that's been floating around the airwaves since day one.
It's refreshing to get answers that are easy to pick apart by consensus.
I usually do some research after reading the answer's I get here.
The answer's I get here make it much easier to pick out the articles that concur with the answer's I get here. The information i get on air is often misleading or outright wrong.
Thanks to all who've responded. 73

yeah, perhaps I mis-understood his goals.

Personally, I tend to like (big) mono-band antennas,but that wasn't his question

yeah, perhaps I mis-understood his goals.

Personally, I tend to like (big) mono-band antennas,but that wasn't his question

 

[222DBFL]

Hey don't get me wrong, like Road Squawker said, I like a big ol vertical too! Love my Sirio vector 4K. It absolutely rocks for where I am located and what area or space I am limited to as far as yard size and such. Also have an HOA here, city over sees the tower permits though. But I don't want to piss of my neighbors for any reason! Be it a large tower or bleedover onto their stuff.
I can attest to having power at times can benefit you, but it is far and few between as T us moment. On 11m anyhow. So it truly doesn't matter unless you are just trying to run a bunch of power for the heck of it.
As far as the antenna you have and the height you have it at, totally understand. My suggestion would be to make that setup as efficient as possible. Think ERP power at the antenna. Not what the radio is putting out. Stop and actually look at how coax loss and connectors and such effect how well your station can perform. There is always a little room for improvement!
Take grounding for instance. One of the most overlooked aspects IMO. A good ground system will actually help your overall setup. That is JMHO. Every ground rods I place in the ground I at least feel a little better about dissipation of unwanted energy coming back to bite my equipment and me possibly! Sometimes it's just little things too. But there is more to it than most would lead you to believe. As far as having a good setup that is. Be it whatever antenna you are using. Like I said, JMO, but I think there is always a little room for improvement for most people's setups. Or at least good maintenance of all of it. From the antenna all the way to the radio. Again, sorry about rambling. Have a good one. And keep at it. Might be time to think about getting your ticket. Same darn thing I need to do myself. I know it's coming! Hard to leave my 11m roots, but there is a lot of frequencies out there that we as just unlicensed CB'er's can't enjoy. As much as I hate big brother knowing, heck they already know more than I do about me anyways LOL!
Just some food for thought.
Now also if you find a good deal on a good amp, I am not saying pass on it! Like I said, sometimes like 131 said, it's nice to break the pile up and get out when conditions are busy as all get out. But it's been so quiet at times lately I keep wanting to check my coax LOL!!
In all seriousness though, I have found that 100w seems to be well enough power to get out on SSB. I like turning the power down as far as possible these days just to see how much power out of the radio it really takes. It's surprising what a few watts will do when it's quiet. At any rate, again, sorry for rambling. Keep at it!! I have learned my share of info from here that is for sure!! Good info, and not some mystical BS that some think 27mhz is LOL! Have a good one.
73 and God Bless,
Sean

 

[Sonar]

Hey don't get me wrong, like Road Squawker said, I like a big ol vertical too! Love my Sirio vector 4K. It absolutely rocks for where I am located and what area or space I am limited to as far as yard size and such. Also have an HOA here, city over sees the tower permits though. But I don't want to piss of my neighbors for any reason! Be it a large tower or bleedover onto their stuff.
I can attest to having power at times can benefit you, but it is far and few between as T us moment. On 11m anyhow. So it truly doesn't matter unless you are just trying to run a bunch of power for the heck of it.
As far as the antenna you have and the height you have it at, totally understand. My suggestion would be to make that setup as efficient as possible. Think ERP power at the antenna. Not what the radio is putting out. Stop and actually look at how coax loss and connectors and such effect how well your station can perform. There is always a little room for improvement!
Take grounding for instance. One of the most overlooked aspects IMO. A good ground system will actually help your overall setup. That is JMHO. Every ground rods I place in the ground I at least feel a little better about dissipation of unwanted energy coming back to bite my equipment and me possibly! Sometimes it's just little things too. But there is more to it than most would lead you to believe. As far as having a good setup that is. Be it whatever antenna you are using. Like I said, JMO, but I think there is always a little room for improvement for most people's setups. Or at least good maintenance of all of it. From the antenna all the way to the radio. Again, sorry about rambling. Have a good one. And keep at it. Might be time to think about getting your ticket. Same darn thing I need to do myself. I know it's coming! Hard to leave my 11m roots, but there is a lot of frequencies out there that we as just unlicensed CB'er's can't enjoy. As much as I hate big brother knowing, heck they already know more than I do about me anyways LOL!
Just some food for thought.
Now also if you find a good deal on a good amp, I am not saying pass on it! Like I said, sometimes like 131 said, it's nice to break the pile up and get out when conditions are busy as all get out. But it's been so quiet at times lately I keep wanting to check my coax LOL!!
In all seriousness though, I have found that 100w seems to be well enough power to get out on SSB. I like turning the power down as far as possible these days just to see how much power out of the radio it really takes. It's surprising what a few watts will do when it's quiet. At any rate, again, sorry for rambling. Keep at it!! I have learned my share of info from here that is for sure!! Good info, and not some mystical BS that some think 27mhz is LOL! Have a good one.
73 and God Bless,
Sean

About the coax. I ask about what I should purchase as far as coax went

Hey don't get me wrong, like Road Squawker said, I like a big ol vertical too! Love my Sirio vector 4K. It absolutely rocks for where I am located and what area or space I am limited to as far as yard size and such. Also have an HOA here, city over sees the tower permits though. But I don't want to piss of my neighbors for any reason! Be it a large tower or bleedover onto their stuff.
I can attest to having power at times can benefit you, but it is far and few between as T us moment. On 11m anyhow. So it truly doesn't matter unless you are just trying to run a bunch of power for the heck of it.
As far as the antenna you have and the height you have it at, totally understand. My suggestion would be to make that setup as efficient as possible. Think ERP power at the antenna. Not what the radio is putting out. Stop and actually look at how coax loss and connectors and such effect how well your station can perform. There is always a little room for improvement!
Take grounding for instance. One of the most overlooked aspects IMO. A good ground system will actually help your overall setup. That is JMHO. Every ground rods I place in the ground I at least feel a little better about dissipation of unwanted energy coming back to bite my equipment and me possibly! Sometimes it's just little things too. But there is more to it than most would lead you to believe. As far as having a good setup that is. Be it whatever antenna you are using. Like I said, JMO, but I think there is always a little room for improvement for most people's setups. Or at least good maintenance of all of it. From the antenna all the way to the radio. Again, sorry about rambling. Have a good one. And keep at it. Might be time to think about getting your ticket. Same darn thing I need to do myself. I know it's coming! Hard to leave my 11m roots, but there is a lot of frequencies out there that we as just unlicensed CB'er's can't enjoy. As much as I hate big brother knowing, heck they already know more than I do about me anyways LOL!
Just some food for thought.
Now also if you find a good deal on a good amp, I am not saying pass on it! Like I said, sometimes like 131 said, it's nice to break the pile up and get out when conditions are busy as all get out. But it's been so quiet at times lately I keep wanting to check my coax LOL!!
In all seriousness though, I have found that 100w seems to be well enough power to get out on SSB. I like turning the power down as far as possible these days just to see how much power out of the radio it really takes. It's surprising what a few watts will do when it's quiet. At any rate, again, sorry for rambling. Keep at it!! I have learned my share of info from here that is for sure!! Good info, and not some mystical BS that some think 27mhz is LOL! Have a good one.
73 and God Bless,
Sean

I inquired about what coax I should purchase as I was setting up my station. I asked on this sight and am I ever glad I did. The consensus was LMR 400. That's what I purchased and I think it's the best investment I've made in my setup so far. My IMAX 2000 is only ten feet off the ground. I asked about that also and the consensus was if that's all you can do right now go for it. I'm glad I listened to those that told me to give it a go otherwise I'd still be using an 11-meter wire dipole and a converted V configuration. I've spoken as far as Japan and and turkey. I'm just waiting for a nice Sunday to finally get my antenna up a bit higher. My brand new roof was holding me back. I've decided to install the IMAX 2000 on the Eve of my house. I purchased an Eve's mount from Rohn. I enjoy the hobby immensely and appreciate all your advice. 73 my friend.

 

[Mustang 131]

If you want a true 1500watts on AM I would get a starter 3cx3000 and call it good. It'll loaf at 2k all day.

 

[Sonar]

If you want a true 1500watts on AM I would get a starter 3cx3000 and call it good. It'll loaf at 2k all day.

Thanks mustang . I'm happy with my setup and was just curious. My next move after getting the imax above the roofline is to get an hf and a 600 ameritron or the like. I think I could run the hf with my Palomar 300a but it just doesn't seem right. I've never loaded the Palomar in the low position. This Palomar can be driven with high power but I'll probably be selling it along with a few other items. I could go in my pocket to pay for an hf and amp but that also doesn't seem right. Some equipment is going to be put away and probably never be used again. I have too much stuff and not enough space or time to use it. By the way I haven't heard you in a while. Your DM sounds awesome on the east coast. 73

 

[wavrider]

http://www.hamuniverse.com/linearamp.html

Good read, then decide what is best way to go for amplifier

https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/9811054.pdf

 

[Mustang 131]

Thanks mustang . I'm happy with my setup and was just curious. My next move after getting the imax above the roofline is to get an hf and a 600 ameritron or the like. I think I could run the hf with my Palomar 300a but it just doesn't seem right. I've never loaded the Palomar in the low position. This Palomar can be driven with high power but I'll probably be selling it along with a few other items. I could go in my pocket to pay for an hf and amp but that also doesn't seem right. Some equipment is going to be put away and probably never be used again. I have too much stuff and not enough space or time to use it. By the way I haven't heard you in a while. Your DM sounds awesome on the east coast. 73

Thank you. If your going yo run a ground plane with anything more then 500w, I would invest in a shockwave antenna.
I did some tests back in the 90's. Here's the results.
http://www.extremecb.com/2000wfuse.htm

 

[Sonar]

http://www.hamuniverse.com/linearamp.html

Good read, then decide what is best way to go for amplifier

https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/9811054.pdf

That's an excellent article. I will read it several times. Thanks. 73