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Simple protection for 2SC2879's

Shockwave

Sr. Member
Sep 19, 2009
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While the simple protection circuit described here will not prevent transistor failure in all cases, for AM use with carrier, it will save you 99% of the time. Ready? Install one 20 amp fast acting fuse inline feeding the DC into the center tap of each output transformer. With an 8 transistor amplifier you will be adding 4 fuses. Connect the load side of each fuse to the input of a digital "AND Gate". The AND gate is an IC that requires all inputs to be high before the output will turn on. You'll use something like a 10K dropping resistor to feed the AND gate inputs from the fused 12 volt lines. Put the resistors on the protection board with the gate, so .01uf bypass caps can take advantage of the resistors to remove unwanted RF, prior to the gate input.

The output of the AND gate should be buffered with a transistor just like the one used in the RF keying circuit if it's an NPN supplying ground to the relay. Add the second transistor between the keying transistor and relay ground side. With an NPN keying circuit, you should keep the original tied to ground since it senses RF to ground. If the keying transistor is in the positive leg of the relay, just add the NPN being driven by the gate, into the negative side.

Now all output transistors can be individually current limited. Since only one at a time draws current in each bank, you fuse as though only one transistor was in each bank. While the old 2879 was rated at 25 amps, you need a 20 amp fuse because they do not open at 20 amps and the next size fuse at 25 amps, will cause the transistor to "replace" the fuse. Because the fuse has to melt, it should not be expected to protect against extreme changes in current like we see on SSB or those who use AM with little to no carrier...

You need to "warm" the fuse with the AM carrier to keep it "ready" to open on brief excursions beyond the safe point. This was my earliest form of protection circuit learned through a digital electronics course in high school. It passed all of the testing I could give it on AM without any problem and almost did the same on SBB, tripping every time I brought the drive up too much. But, one key on SSB with too much drive and one sharp peak being the first thing to hit the amp, blew one of 16 transistors and earned the circuit an F- for SSB performance!

Protection can be dramatically improved if the amplifier uses an internal driver that is not being maxed out. Apply the same protection to the driver stage but use a smaller fuse that will only handle the current drawn, when properly driven. Now, the driver will be the first to trigger the protection, long before the finals are placed under any stress. When any bank draws more than the safe current, a fuse opens. One input to the AND gate goes low. The output of the AND gate turns off, unbiasing the NPN transistor and releasing the keying relay to "barefoot" operation. As a teenager, this circuit almost got me beat up by the local technician when I started selling it to his "frequent flyer customers".
 
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Had the notion of putting four small relays in a Texas Star Sweet Sixteen, each coil powered from one of the four fuses. Each fuse feeds one two-transistor board. With all four NO contacts wired in series, this circuit would hold the coil of a large relay energized. That relay would have a large contact in line with the amplifier's positive power lead. A normally-open pushbutton would make it a "latching" sort of relay so long as it remains powered. And if one fuse pops, you have the functional equivalent of Shockwave's AND gate. All four fuses have to be intact to make the big relay stay on. A normally-open push button switch wired across the four series-connected relay contacts would be the "Start" switch.

The intent wasn't so much preserving transistors as preserving the rest of the amplifier when one of the four pair shuts down, especially the output combiners. They are none too large and get radically roasted any time there is a partial shutdown in this model. At the time the labor to clean up the collateral damage from one failed pair was more than the transistors cost. But finding the room for this trick in there was a problem. Never did implement it. Before ROHS you could get away with replacing just one pair of failed 2SC2879. Didn't have to worry about mixing incompatible parts, they all came from Toshiba at the time, and there was no such thing as a "red dot".

Yet.

Replacing "just one" failed pair now is pretty much impossible unless you magically score two parts of the same exact type, with characteristics close enough to match the other six transistors.

The price of the bipolar transistor 20 years later turns around the balance of incentive. Should qualify as cheap insurance now.

73
 
Had the notion of putting four small relays in a Texas Star Sweet Sixteen, each coil powered from one of the four fuses. Each fuse feeds one two-transistor board. With all four NO contacts wired in series, this circuit would hold the coil of a large relay energized. That relay would have a large contact in line with the amplifier's positive power lead. A normally-open pushbutton would make it a "latching" sort of relay so long as it remains powered. And if one fuse pops, you have the functional equivalent of Shockwave's AND gate. All four fuses have to be intact to make the big relay stay on. A normally-open push button switch wired across the four series-connected relay contacts would be the "Start" switch.

The intent wasn't so much preserving transistors as preserving the rest of the amplifier when one of the four pair shuts down, especially the output combiners. They are none too large and get radically roasted any time there is a partial shutdown in this model. At the time the labor to clean up the collateral damage from one failed pair was more than the transistors cost. But finding the room for this trick in there was a problem. Never did implement it. Before ROHS you could get away with replacing just one pair of failed 2SC2879. Didn't have to worry about mixing incompatible parts, they all came from Toshiba at the time, and there was no such thing as a "red dot".

Yet.

Replacing "just one" failed pair now is pretty much impossible unless you magically score two parts of the same exact type, with characteristics close enough to match the other six transistors.

The price of the bipolar transistor 20 years later turns around the balance of incentive. Should qualify as cheap insurance now.

73

It's amazing how much we think alike on this because the relay version was the very first protection circuit I built on a TNT Twelve Pack. While it worked, I was concerned that the time it took for the fuse to blow and at least two relays to unlatch, was placing transistors at risk. The AND gate reduced the time by a little but we are still dealing with the keying relay having to open to remove the drive.
 
I wonder how hard it would be to measure the output to provide attenuation on the input? Like an AGC for the amp itself?
This is easy to do in very low power stages operating in the milliwatts. One RF generator I worked on used a voltage controlled RF attenuator in a round metal 8 pin IC package. I think it only handled about 100 milliwatts and was used in a pre-driver stage.
 
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I'd love to see someone work out the RF equivalent of the "L pad" attenuator used in line with a loudspeaker. It's a rotary control that uses pots that have enough power rating to soak up all or part of the audio power to the speaker. Two variable resistors change in opposite direction, keeping the load impedance from changing drastically. A passive attenuator. Typically made from wirewound resistance elements, and not suitable for RF.

Somebody needs to work out the equivalent with PIN diodes and non-inductive resistors. A PI or "T" attenuator with PIN diodes in line with the resistance elements of the circuit. Leads me to wonder if a long coil of coax could serve as a delay line between an overload detector and the actual amplifier input? Like the "delayed sweep" in old-school analog oscilloscopes. It's not the sweep that's being delayed, it's the signal it's displaying that gets delayed on its way to the CRT. Gives the horizontal-sweep waveform a head start, so you can see the very-beginning slice of the waveform. Giving an overdrive detector a microsecond or so "head start" could make all the difference to a MOSFET gate.

Maybe?

73
 
I'd love to see someone work out the RF equivalent of the "L pad" attenuator used in line with a loudspeaker. It's a rotary control that uses pots that have enough power rating to soak up all or part of the audio power to the speaker. Two variable resistors change in opposite direction, keeping the load impedance from changing drastically. A passive attenuator. Typically made from wirewound resistance elements, and not suitable for RF.

Somebody needs to work out the equivalent with PIN diodes and non-inductive resistors. A PI or "T" attenuator with PIN diodes in line with the resistance elements of the circuit. Leads me to wonder if a long coil of coax could serve as a delay line between an overload detector and the actual amplifier input? Like the "delayed sweep" in old-school analog oscilloscopes. It's not the sweep that's being delayed, it's the signal it's displaying that gets delayed on its way to the CRT. Gives the horizontal-sweep waveform a head start, so you can see the very-beginning slice of the waveform. Giving an overdrive detector a microsecond or so "head start" could make all the difference to a MOSFET gate.

Maybe?

73
I've tried to respond to this post and keep getting stuck not being able to explain how both of these issues have been solved, without disclosing things I can't because they go well beyond simple protection and involve the circuits being used in our new amplifier design. What I can do in an upcoming video is show that the drive control used in that design, can handle 50 watts PEP input (far more than required) and maintains well under a 1.5:1 VSWR through its entire range. It only approaches the 1.5:1 VSWR when the drive is turned all the way down and the amplifier is now producing less output than the exciter.

With respect to preventing excessive drive power from ever reaching the gates, that too will be demonstrated. You will see how when we attempt to do something like apply several times the required drive power, that the amplifier will never even enter the TX mode until that drive level is within a preset limit. We've already shown that this circuit will shut down the amp if an overdrive condition occurs while operating, in the last video. Now we will show its ability to totally lock out the amplifier if that overdrive condition is present, before the amplifier is keyed.
 
At 38.75 amps of collector current on a 2879, that's not realistic even for a quick key. Have to wonder what the accuracy of the meter, or its shunt is at that point. The only exception I can think of is if the amp is heavily biased and holding the transistors conducting a lot of DC, when either half are not conducting from RF.

The problem with most 12 volt high power RF transistors is you really can't utilize the full dissipation of the part in a practical amplifier, without exceeding its absolute maximum permissible current.
 
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8 2879's @155a in class C are not drawing more than datasheet spec @19.375amps each,

Current is time dependent,
1 amp is 1 coulomb per second or 6.2 × 1000,000,000,000,000,000 electrons per second,

since each transistor is conducting only half of each second, each device is only passing 1/2 of the current a pair draws,

sd1446's are rated at 12a but a pushpull pair will draw 24a FM and last for a long time doing it providing you keep them cool,

a class C 2x 2879 amp can pull 40a FM no problem without melting the tiny gold wires inside, & more if biased into deep class C to reduce duty cycle,

reduce the time a device is conducting & the current it can withstand goes up,
just like a 20a fuse can withstand MUCH more that 20a if you reduce the time its carrying the current into short pulses with a resting period long enough to cool the wire,

it causes thermal cycling which can shorten the lifespan of the wire but it won't pop the wire because its carrying too much current.

W8JI tells it how it is on QRZ when Hams were laughing at cb amp power claims.
 
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Crusher
i agree its not the way to do it but 155amp for 8x 2879's is 19.375A per 2879 which is under max current rating for the transistors,

a single ended amp will only draw about half what a pushpull pair draws when both amps are designed with a load impedance for stock voltage,

i have only blown 1 amp up in my lifetime & that was due to driving a 2x 455 amp with 32w FM by accident 35 years ago,

every 2 x 455 or 1446 amp i ever used pulled 20+ Amps on FM reliably even though 1446 is a 12A device,
its not until a pair are pulling more than 24A that you are over the current rating,
4 x 1446 routinely pull 40a + & melt the fuse holders.

Dave style keydown amps are not designed for stock volts and are incredibly inefficient even compared to a good AB amp outside of a high volt keydown situation what they were made for..

adding bias to a Dave style amp & running it on stock volts is hmmm there is a word for it but it will upset folk.
 
It’s ok, sometimes ppl need to get their feelings hurt. I know what some of The comp style would do on volts. Lol, it was stupid. I can remember being in keydowns running a 1x2 on 19 volts dead keying 950w. Or running a 1x2x6 at a keydown doing 1700 and I’m not talking peak watts. Mind you, these were 10 second keys. Go or blow on the line. Not for everyday use.
 
It’s ok, sometimes ppl need to get their feelings hurt. I know what some of The comp style would do on volts. Lol, it was stupid. I can remember being in keydowns running a 1x2 on 19 volts dead keying 950w. Or running a 1x2x6 at a keydown doing 1700 and I’m not talking peak watts. Mind you, these were 10 second keys. Go or blow on the line. Not for everyday use.

And you spent 2 days making sure your ducks were in a row before mashing the gas and keying.
Lol
You could beat the crap out of Toshiba's

73
Jeff
 

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