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Adjustments for resonance

Here's the next question:
If my peak forward is at a 3.1:1 SWR, indicating a resonant system, what's the point? After all, the 3.1 SWR will cause my transmitter to fold back so severely I may as well be transmitting on a dry noodle, yes/no? Explain in simple terms; remember, some of us hail from Arkansas...
 
the presence of the matching network (or any matching point) between the transmitter output and the feedline input to the load (antenna) prevents the transmitter from "seeing" the swr on the feedine. your transmitter is only seeing 50 ohms and delivering all available power to the input of the matching network.
 
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So, I just pretend that my peak forward is really not at the 3.1:1 SWR although my tuner says it is. The tuner is lying about the 3.1 but not the peak forward. If so, then maybe it's also lying about the peak forward...
I tell you, you can't trust these tuners to tell a straight story.
 
now that i'm leafing through the users instruction manual your "panel
meter lighting" doesn't appear to be intended as any type of an indicator
but the behavior is not necessarily unimportant. oh wait, here it is. the
peak forward power meter, aka the "digital bargraph display."

five questions.
are you using an amplifier when you're making these measurements?
do you have a copy of the vectronics hft-1500 users instruction manual?
what antenna & operating frequenc/y/ies are used for these measurements?
is the equipment connected according to the meter calibration procedure?
what's the brand/type, length and age of feedline from the antenna to shack?
 
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freecell said:
five questions.
are you using an amplifier when you're making these measurements?
Nope
freecell said:
do you have a copy of the vectronics hft-1500 users instruction manual?
Yes
freecell said:
what antenna & operating frequenc/y/ies are used for these measurements?
Slinky dipole in the attic. 80m -10m.
freecell said:
is the equipment connected according to the meter calibration procedure?
Don't know. It's hooked up xceiver>coax>tuner>coax>1:1 Xformer>450 Ohm twinlead> dipole
freecell said:
what's the brand/type, length and age of feedline from the antenna to shack?
New. Don't know.
Most of the questions were hypothetical.
 
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I don't have a 3.1 SWR. That is hypothetical.
What I do have is the inclination to see a contradiction in the idea that a lower SWR is not as good as a farther swinging meter needle, or in my case, more red lights turned on. In my experience, 50 Ohms is presented to the rig by a tuner, or transformer, when the SWR is 1.0:1.
"Conjugated Match" explanations read like antenna tuning "Who's on First" and, on the surface, seem self- contradictory. My questions were hyperbolic hypothesis asked in hopes of someone clearing of the spilled goulash of how 50 Ohms is presented to the rig when the SWR is not flat. I asked for the newbies reading along.
 
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Dig a little deeper...

You'll see where "conjugate" is simply to make one stage to be able to couple to another - when the output of one stage is not "compatible" to the input of another.

Amplifiers have this problem all day. So some use "resistor", some Inductive - even capacitive, while others use Combiners, other use Matching Conjugate while others use Cancelation methods designed to "phase out" the unwanted, unwarranted powers that are created within the stage and once "shaped" by these various methods - are given a window of escape in which only so much power can be transferred. (Some call this conjugate - as a lumped in definition)

IF many would simply step back and take a moment to realize the "final stage" to couple is; the antenna.

Problem with that approach - is the antenna is an enigma to those whom refuse to understand that it too is a system that although can be constructed to be resonate - you still have to "connect" it to the output stage , which can be a set of problems within itself.

Once you can get the "extension cord carborundrum" figured out (coax - mount and location) - you can use what you feel or prove, or even guess - or speculate - conjecture, weld, glue bolt-together or feel free to use any other metaphor here that can be added to the adjectives - so you can then couple the signal to the (as the Greeks would say) "Ether" in any way shape or form for the contraption to radiate - and even have the gall to call it an antenna.

Many a patent was approved by simply blinding them that issue the numbers sequentially - with stuff that was gathered out of dictionaries and encyclopedias in clumps = rearranged to form a syntax of sentences - shoved in front of a group of self proclaimed scientific critics that; even upon review, those that "Get it" often do "Get it" ($$$ SEE: Shark Tank) and the others that don't are left at their desks - to grow old - or in some instances - become a permanent fixture...

ted-striker-airplane-i1_378.jpg

This could be a LONG thread...​
 
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"the swr on the transmission line between the antenna and a matching network at the input to the line is determined ONLY by the mismatch conditions at the load and IS NOT CHANGED or BROUGHT DOWN by the matching network."

"any lowering of the swr by using the device indicates ONLY the mismatch remaining between the input impedance of the network and the impedance of the line from the transmitter."

explain to me why are you using a 1:1 balun/transformer to connect a 50 ohm line with 450 ohm twinlead? hypothetical or otherwise, the balun/transformer required for that connection should have a ratio of 1:9, not 1:1.

you posted:
In my experience, 50 Ohms is presented to the rig by a tuner, or transformer, when the SWR is 1.0:1.

the 50 ohms mentioned in the hypothetical statement above is the CAUSE of the 1.0:1 SWR, NOT THE EFFECT OR RESULT. 1# voltage and current, 2# impedance, 3# swr.

regardless of your experience, the statement is false. only when the load impedance is equal to the characteristic impedance of the line, (given a fixed 50 ohm transmitter output impedance) is the swr of the line equal to 1:1. your chances of seeing a perfect load impedance at the feedpoint of the antenna and feed configuration that you're using (hypothetical or otherwise) are the same as winning the lottery.

read my first statement of fact one more time at the beginning of this post. when one has achieved reflectionless load matching, as opposed to line input matching, they don't go looking for a matching network.

i can't believe that you have never conjugated.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conjugate

The Conjugate Match: One of the most important things that a CB tech can know
Reflection Mechanics The How and Why of Standing Waves

https://www.angelfire.com/electronic/cbdoctor/conjugatematch.html

https://www.worldwidedx.com/members/cbdoctor.10435/
 
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To whom were you addressing this to @freecell

I just wanted everyone to realize that this is not a simple "dipole" antenna - Maxwell was up against specific problems and conditions in which he discovered these effects (or losses) that work in our favor for the rest of us.

It saddens me to have to say this, but can we do a reality check for a moment?
Has anyone bothered to research the problems
Maxwell was dealing with BEFORE everyone tends to
overemphasize specific articles (if not at least know)
what the antenna even looked like?
upload_2021-8-31_13-29-25.png

Another more realistic look via size comparison...

tiros_sidebyside.jpg

It's not a monster - it's a simple set of aerials.

Again...
Don't overthink this!​
 
The Conjugate Match: One of the most important things that a CB tech can know

Yes, if they see themselves at the level of a technician, yes they should. Sadly most don't, and we get many CB Myths that have even filtered into the ham radio side because of it. The whole "does an antenna tuner actually tune an antenna" debate is a prime example of this. Anyone who understands the principles of the conjugate match will know the answer to this, and why.

only when the load impedance is equal to the characteristic impedance of the line, (given a fixed 50 ohm transmitter output impedance) is the swr of the line equal to 1:1

From the perspective of the feed line that goes between the radio and the antenna tuner, the impedance that is presented by the antenna tuner is treated as its load. In other words, if the antenna tuner can present a 50∠0° impedance to the feed line before it, the feed line and the radio will see an SWR match.

Now I'm going to go back a bit to address an older quote.

I have noticed on my manual tuner that the peak forward power meter lights are usually showing greater output when the SWR indicator cross needles are not at the lowest SWR, close, but not the closest. Anything relevant.

I am surprised I didn't answer this before as I think it is very a good question and this is the type of question I generally try and answer. Thanks Freecell for bringing it up again.

When it comes to peak forward power out on the line, the higher your SWR the more forward power a directional watt meter will show. This is true going into tunable antennas, as well as antenna tuners like what you are seeing it in your post, and I have seen this many many times as well. A lot of cb shops back in the day would take advantage of this to make it look like they increased the power output of the radios they "worked" on when they didn't actually do anything to the radio, so this is nothing new. Today, however, many radios have high SWR protection circuits, so this is a bit harder to replicate with modern equipment as the radio will cut back on its power, often before you even realize it even happened.

Anyway, referencing M. Walter Maxwell...

Another Look at Reflections said:
Total rereflection of the reflected power at the line input is the reason for its not being dissipated in the transmitter, and why it is conserved, rather than lost.

For those that don't know the "line input" is simply where the coax attaches to the radio.

He goes into more detail, but it gets more complex than what a lot of people can comprehend, so I'll leave that quote out.

So, what is actually going on? The reflected power from the SWR mismatch and where it ends up is the key to this. A lot of people mistakenly believe this reflected power is sinked off as extra heat in the "finals" or whatever they are calling the final stage output transistors these days, but that is not what is actually happening. Due to the principles of the "conjugate match" (hot topic lately huh), this power is re-reflected back up the feed line towards the load, or in your case the antenna tuner with its two needle SWR meter, which is then accurately read as more power traveling towards the antenna (or antenna tuner). As you approach an SWR match, there is less power being reflected back towards the radio, which by extension means there is less power for the radio to re-reflect back towards this meter, and thus the meter picks up less forward power.

Hmm, that didn't come off as simple as I intended... Homer, if you need I will find a better way to explain it.


The DB
 
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You did fine for me. I was only asking because many newbies, and a few old farts, find this confusing. I'm not having any issues. Just trying to get things simpler.

You see, when I was learning to communicate with an audience as a young minister an older, wiser, & more experienced preacher gave me advice. He said not to preach at my level, but to consider the least educated person in my audience and craft my delivery for that person. He said start at the lowest potential hearer's level and everyone else would understand as well.

Because, IMO, most technical books are made for the authors to apparently show off how "brilliant" they are I don't read them. They use their books like a mirror, "Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the most brilliant of them all?" Worthless to me.

So we hear what happens to reflected power. It's the explanations of the how, and why, that fail most.
Why? Because, based on the mode of operation, we relate our experience to when we key the mic, or speak, to initate the process that results in rf current traveling the feedline toward the antenna and outward into the atmosphere. This is a simple concept. But we're not done, yet.
Then we hear if the feedline and antenna doesn't play footsie with the 50 ohm output section of the transmitter we get a high(er) SWR (Standing Wave Ratio) than the we are told is best. This, we're told is because the rf current failed to realize there are rules for footsie, and the rf current refuses to play and goes back home. It's the current going home that bumps into the current going to play that causes the Standing Waves on the feedline, just like two people in the supermarket aisle trying to get out of each other's way and dancing back and forth into each other's way over and over. All of the players must be 50 Ohms, from the transmitter to the feedline to the antenna itself, including anything put into the feedline. All these parts are called the antenna system. This is still fairly simple, but not to everyone, but we are willing to answer all the newbie questions patiently, right?
So, we use a 50 Ohm coax and part of the "match" will play footsie. We move on to trying to get the antenna to play by the rules. If it does eventually agree to play by the rules we get a good low SWR because no one is trying to go back home bumping into each other, but all, or most, of the rf current is going out into the atmosphere.
THEN, someone comes along and tells everyone there are new rules (Clearly they've been colluding with the NCAA). These referees want to straighten all the happy-until-now footsie players out and come up with words like "conjugate," squiggly little meaningless to normal people symbols, math, arguments that are beyond the ken of the common, and quotes from the mirror gazer's books that only confuse further. Simplicity flies off the coax of most folks at the speed of sound x millions (Mhz) and we mere mortals put our feet back into our shoes, avoid the book stores, and strive for a simpler life. Footsie isn't fun anymore.

I do not have any technical antenna books but one. When someone encourages me to get one, I open the one I've got, attempt to read a random paragraph anywhere in the book, and when it is impossible to follow without reading it more than once, I decline to buy a copy of the recommended journal.
If a 5th grader can not follow an explanation it hasn't been explained. Simple.
Thank you for putting up with my post.
Homer (aka Keep It Simply Simple)

PS. Can I explain the conjugate match in simple terms? No. I have never seen nor heard an explanation that makes complete simple sense to me, so I, in turn, can not share my infinite dazzling brilliance. Frankly, it may not even exists for lowly creatures like me... :(
 
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Conjugate


1a: joined together especially in pairs : COUPLED
a conjugate relationship - Good!

b: acting or operating as if joined - Murky

2a: having features in common but opposite or inverse in some particular - bad, bad, bad, bad...

It's the 2a's that gets to me.
 
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You did fine for me. I was only asking because many newbies, and a few old farts, find this confusing. I'm not having any issues. Just trying to get things simpler.

Glad I can help.

You see, when I was learning to communicate with an audience as a young minister an older, wiser, & more experienced preacher gave me advice. He said not to preach at my level, but to consider the least educated person in my audience and craft my delivery for that person. He said start at the lowest potential hearer's level and everyone else would understand as well.

I have noticed this as well, and agree with the older and wiser preacher here, at least mostly. That being said, I tend to scale my responses to the level of the person asking, not the lowest level that will ever read them. Sometimes, I'll put the answer right above where they are with the tools to help them grow into the answer. I do this because, while spreading knowledge is a good thing, getting people to expand into something they didn't understand before, even if it is a small step, increases the average knowledge level of the group as a whole.

For example, if someone who has no concepts beyond SWR asks a question about SWR, but your answer requires an understanding of complex impedance, did you really help them?

Talking to a level that someone else can understand is a skill, and not an easy one to learn. Should you find someone in a hobby, any hobby, that has this skill, don't be afraid to utilize them. They likely learned this skill as a result of helping others, so helping others is something they are good at, and perhaps even enjoy. Seeing you grow with their help is often just as interesting to this type of person as the hobby itself...


The DB
 

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