Antennas MUST be big and high->dispelling the myth!

[SLR_65]

I started a thread called "Antenna tuners in series?", but the focus has wandered a bit to low, non-optimum installs so I thought I would start a new thread that reflects what I've discovered is what I feel a prevelant antenna attitude that's doing a big disservice by keeping people off of HF.

I've been hit with a devastating eye disease and have been left with very low vision. I'm not sure we'll stay at this QTH, so I'm not doing any big antenna structure projects. I want to play with HF though!

Because of this I'm stuck with wire antennas and mounting to the house, an 1,100 square foot ranch with attached garage that's only single story. The eaves are about 12' off the ground.

I've been exploring antenna options within those confines and I've posted notes here and on other forums.

I'm amazed that the prevelant response is that antennas installed in such situations won't work very well. I keep being told they HAVE to be high and long! Well, I don't even have a tree handy, this is it folks!

I've persevered. At first I put up a 10 meter coax fed dipole. Only 16' long, 12' off the ground. It works! 10 meter is kind of variable though, not much local activity and really dependent on sun spots.

I'm using a Kenwood TS-590SG with an internal antenna tuner. It tunes the 10 meter dipole just fine, if I recall it'll do 12 also, but it won't do 20.

I also have a Dentron Super Tuner. It CAN tune the 10 meter dipole to 20 through 10 meter. In fact, I tuned it to 20 meter on Friday night and a Czech Republic station was working a pile up...I threw my call out and they acknowledged me! It wasn't solid, but I DID make it there!

Encouraged, my son and I installed a 40 meter doublet Sunday, it's a doublet so it's a dipole fed with 450 ladder line. Unfortunately I don't have a stand alone balun, I'm using the 4:1 voltage balun in the Dentron, so I can't take the Dentron out of the equation and see if the Kenwood can tune it direct. I'll have access to a 4:1 current balun hopefully this weekend, so we'll see then. The doublet can be tuned by the Dentron to 80 meters and up. I was able to talk to Puerto Rico on it from Nebraska Sunday night! Another just getting lucky fluke with a low antenna??? Two flukes in three days??? <- I LIKE those odds!

Pretty much, if I can hear them and it's a solid signal then if I call they answer, though it seems it's a bit harder for them to hear me. More often than not they do answer though.

I can pretty easily compare the 10 meter dipole to the tuner/doublet because my rig has two antenna inputs. It appears the signal to noise ratio is about half on the doublet, i.e. the noise floor cuts to about half when I switch between them and if I tune a beacon the beacon signal strength almost doubles when I switch to the doublet, which just shows the more wire the better it seems to work.

Soooo, yes, if you have room and no other issues for a big tall antenna then by all means go for it, no bigger bang for the buck, but if you don't, if you have constraints either physically like I do, or from neighbors, zoning, etc. and the naysayers have been keeping you off of HF I'd suggest paying them no attention. Grab a bag of wood post electric fence insulators, some wire, a ladder lok center feed, some ladder line and a good tuner (or possibly just a balun if your rig has a tuner) and string some wire up!

ANY antenna is better than NO antenna! And you won't be chasing after the occasional contact, pretty much if you can hear them solid I'll bet they can hear you.

There's no reason to sit by the sidelines, just use what's available to you and persevere on...I'm having a ball experimenting with this, next I'm going to see if a non-resonant horizontal loop around the house can be made to work. While I'm doing that I'm getting my QSL cards designed and ordered and starting on the Worked All States award!

I hope this spurs others on to try. If you don't have an HF radio, tuner, etc. I'll bet a local amateur could be found to bring one over if you take the time to string the antenna (food, adult beverages, etc. should also be liberally available!). If it doesn't work you're not out much, if it does then get a rig and have big fun! Hanging around the local repeaters is fun too, but nothing beats HF to me!

I would LOVE to hear of other non-optimum antenna installations! If you have something working PLEASE post it!

I seem to find myself on 20 meter around 10pm most nights, if anyone wants to say hello give a listen for KA0NEB, or drop me a pm about that time and I'll try and meet you on a frequency...remember, I'm starting on my Worked All States campaign today, so be prepared to send a QSL card!

Take care all, 73s,

Steve, KA0NEB

 

[The DB]

To say that height is completely unimportant is wrong. That doesn't mean that an antenna at a lower height won't work, but the same antenna at a higher elevation will work better.

There are people all the time that have to work with smaller and restricted antennas. Using what you have available to you and experimenting is the way of the ham, and don't let anyone ever tell you different. Don't be afraid to ask for advice, but don't be afraid to try things like this yourself. An un-optimal setup that works ok is better than no setup at all...


The DB

 

[SLR_65]

Absolutely, and the attitude that seemed to be coming through was that it wouldn't work well at all and wasn't worth the effort and that's simply not true, at least in my case, I've been making many contacts.

10pm central time most nights, 20 meter, maybe 14.290 if clear, maybe point those big ole beams at Lincoln Nebraska and we'll discuss this? I also hang out on the KC0SWG repeater about this time, so if you Echolink and want to try and hookup on HF give me a yell on the repeater...in fact that would be kind of fun if we could relaibly talk via the repeater and see if we could test which HF bands we could hook up on...if anyone is interested give me a yell! I love playing with this stuff!

Take care, see ya on HF!

Steve KA0NEB

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

The thing is that everybody has their own expectations as well as their own desires. If all you want is to make contacts mainly inside North America with a sprinkling of trans-oceanic DX then almost anything will work. People saying that it will not work are really saying "it will not work for THEM" and that is because they have other desires and expectations. They EXPECT to be able to make trans-oceanic and intercontinental DX contacts routinely and with minimal trouble. Who is right? BOTH are right because it depends on what each is willing to accept.

The next time someone says you need a really long and really high antenna ask them how guys manage to work 5 band DXCC while mobile. Just how high does a mobile antenna need to be anyway? I have worked all over the world from the mobile with 100 watts. I have worked western Europe on 80m while mobile. I have worked mobile to mobile into Egypt, Argentina, South Africa and many other places. My best and longest DX EVER was the 3B9C operation on Rodriques Island.I worked it with a crappy Hamstick one morning on 20m. It was long-path and was 15,000 miles. The antenna was 8 feet long and mounted on the trunk lid of my car. BIG and HIGH antennas are NOT necessary however they are highly desired by most operators.

 

[SLR_65]

I agree, but it seems the expectation that seems to be given to those who inquire is that it won't work at all, and that's not true by a long shot.

OK, hot bright day, newly blind guy suffering steroid jitters on a ladder...nothing could possibly go wrong here, right?

RIGHT!

I ran a wire the rest of the way around the perimeter of the house and hooked it on to the ends of the doublet to make a horizontal loop antenna.

It's working well, the Dentrpn can match it easily from 80 to 10 meter!

It's about half again as quiet as the doublet for background noise and a good gain for signals over the doublet.

I can't read the lcd meter on the Kenwood too well, it's got several scales though and one I can read fairly well. There's a 10 meter beacon I was playing with. On the dipole it was on 5, on the doublet it was on 10. When I got the ends tied together I came back in, the dipole is still at 5 but the loop is at 18!

Ran near the cable tv for a bit, but no interference issues.

I think it's a keeper!

The Dentron is matching it easily. When it's configured as a doublet the Dentron can match it, but some bands are touchy, it seems with the loop they're not nearly as touchy.

The Dentron has a 4:1 voltage balun in it, I'm hoping to get to play with a stand alone 4:! current balun this weekend, I really hope the Kenwood's tuner will be happy with a balun and will be able to tune the loop it's self.

The saga continues...and it's an absolute hoot, I LOVE this kinda stuff!

73s!

Steve KA0NEB

 

[SLR_65]

Tuned the loop for 80 meter tonight and found it fairly active considering it was midnight on a weekday. Got in a OK/MO/IL qso, I was very light to them, but they got me...they were all running dipoles at 30 plus feet and kw amps. Still, 100 watts, 200' loop 12' off the ground and they heard me. It's not ideal, they were nice/patient to deal with me, but it was better than sitting by the sidelines!

 

[Singularity35]

I've been through a couple hobbies or so, big is better is always on the menu but a few guys call it compensation.

 

[wavrider]

Now you are finding out about antennas, and NO they do not need to be HIGH IN THE AIR to work.

Now how an antenna performs is a different story all together.

My advice to you is to get a hold of an antenna handbook and READ IT,

http://www.hamuniverse.com/wb4yjtdipolepatterns.html

Good reading for radiation patterns above ground vs height

So now IF you read that link you will know WHY all say to get it as high as you can in the air.

An antenna installed properly will be most efficient when it is at least 1/2 wl above ground level,

the higher in height you go the more the radiation pattern changes.

I will not go into a detailed antenna theory explanation now as I need to get ready to go to work.

READ READ READ then ask question on what you do not understand.

AS Captain Kilowatt said, when conditions are favorable the world can be worked on a ham stick.

 

[Robb]

I agree that it is about expectations.

Soooo . . . Just how do you want to engineer your station? After all, you are now the engineer.

Any antenna that has gain is going to potentially have greater radiated power. This can work for you even if you are using 100w or less. There is no reason that you should settle for 3rd or 4th best unless you don't really have any other choice.

 

[SLR_65]

Good morning guys,

The point of this thread isn't to say not to use high antennas, no doubt they work best there and are the best bang for your buck, the point is that when people inquire about lower antennas they're frequently given the impression it won't work at all and is not worth the effort, which I'll venture to guess is keeping many off of HF, and I'm finding that advice is not true at all and I feel is an incredible disservice. It's simply going to be more challenging, but the success/failure rate, for me at least, is very good - easily keeps one's interest going. Kind of an Echolink/HF situation...on Echolink I KNOW I can make the trip to any linked repeater in the world, when I key up I WILL be heard. When you try that on HF there's a whole lot more in play and you may or may not make the trip. As we've discovered, it's about expectations and goals, if talking to someone in another area is the goal, Echolink will meet that goal, if the goal is more about the trip getting there then HF will give you more enjoyment, and just because you may have some issues limiting your antenna it doesn't mean you can't/won't still enjoy HF.

I've been researching and trying to read up on antenna theory, but my problem is I'm just short of blind and I have very poor contrast so line drawings kill me. I need a black background with white lines instead of the normal black on white or the lines just wash into the white.

The one thing I picked up though is that yes, efficiency goes down with the height, but it never goes to the level of NO antenna, so ANY is better than NONE.

Prediciting how it will work I think is a waste of time, there's just too many variables Site elevation? What's the soil like? Up against a building? How/what's it built like? On and on. The old adage "it depends" rears it's head here. Wire antennas are cheap and easy to install though, especially on a structure like I'm doing under the eaves, so rather than forgo HF I'd say string some wire and see what happens! If it works well enough for your expectations then you're in for big fun, if it doesn't you haven't lost much and now you know. DO run the experiment though.

Talking to the 80 meter guys last night, I noted they all had dipoles at around 30-50 feet....hmmm, what happened to the 1/2 wl height spec? That'd be 260' or so on 80. Doing a little reading it seems that again, expectations come into play here - the expectations are less for 80 meter antennas....because it's not practical to get them up that high for most people. Following the advice for the higher bands though, why aren't we just saying it's not efficient enough and not worth the effort? Because even though it's not efficient, it DOES work and it DOES allow us to use that band. It seems the popular height inefficiency tolerance for an 80 meter antenna is moved down to about 1/8 wl.

I hope this thread encourages others with antenna installation issues to at least try...post back both your successes and failures.

See you on HF!

Steve KA0NEB

 

[BJ radionut]

That'd be 260' or so on 80.

More like 120' for 1/2 wave on 80/75m...
I'm with CK...I talked to Washington St. and Canada this morning on 75m from IND.
My antenna 4ft off the ground and 12ft long....
Who said it could not be done?
All the Best
Gary

 

[SLR_65]

Yep, I got my math wrong, but still, 120' isn't practical for most and it's recognized and the standard height advise is lowered...we have no reservations doing that for 80, but don't want to do the same for the other bands.

OK, there's a grease spot where the dead horse used to be, if you've got antenna restrictions keeping you from trying HF, run a wire as high as you can and see what happens. If high is 10', so be it, just DO try...and post back your experineces!

 

[2RT307]

Glad you're having fun with this stuff, and sorry to hear about your illness. I talk to a guy regularly on 40 meters that has a similar issue, and another guy that is legally blind. They both use similar methods as you, only the legally blind fella uses all automatic stuff (he has one of the fancy Alpha amps with auto tune). You can use some of the voice options (like with HRD) to announce what frequency you are on as well.

I couldn't agree more with you on the antenna situation. My setup is also less than ideal, and I have a delta loop that is literally mounted on my roof. It works multi-band 40 and up, and works well. I've made many contacts here in the states and into Europe. I also have an end fed random wire that is mounted along the top of my fence (8 feet off the ground), that covers 75-10, and it works surprisingly well. Lastly, I have an end fed half wave for 10 meters that is also 8 feet off the ground. I worked Hungary with that one! No, it's not the best, but beats the alternative! I'm glad you're not letting people tell you it won't work, it can't work, or that's not the right way to do it. Othewise, you wouldn't be on the air having fun. Hope to catch you on the bands sometime.

73,
Brett

 

[SLR_65]

Hi Brett,

Yeah, vision loss is a challenge, I'm finding it very annoying. I can see big things, but fine detail isn't good...I know something needs done and what to do, and just a month ago I could see and do it, but now I can't pull it off...very frustrating!

i'm getting radio operation done, right now PSK31 is a stumbler, FLDigi isn't easy for me to see and I can't get the contrast right. I'll look for other programs though.

Glad to hear the low antennas are working for you too, I may have to experiment with end feds!

I've been researching how to get at least one high spot on the property at a reasonable price, but that's not that easy of an order. The Rohn 9H50 is probably the cheapest mast option, but is $150 delivered plus probably another $50-75 in guy materials. A DIY tilt up would probably be about the same money and not need guyed, but I'm not up to the proects and may not stay at this qth so don't want to plant anything permanent, so a guyed temp would be nice. It's too bad those inexpensive military fiberglass poles everyone raves about in the threads I've found are no longer available.

I'll keep digging, until then I'll keep plugging away waaay to close to the ground!

Take care,

Steve

 

[2RT307]

Listened t this fella last night on 40 meters... look him up on QRZ to see his antenna setup. BIG pic! KB9FOP.

73,
Brett