Because I was asked - Best Vertical

[HomerBB]

I have a rectangle in the attic. It is better than the square was I don't know how it would do outside.

I have not had any other beam up at the same time as the quad, but if a subjective impression has any value I'd say the Moxon works as well for me.

 

[wavrider]

NB,

I have used a pair of co phased delta loops for 11 meters, horizontal polarized, using rg-6 for impedance matching.

Those delta loops worked great. Had them about 18' off the ground hanging between the tower and a tree.

Nice quiet and very broad banded, was able to use it up into the phone portion of 10 meters.

Nice. Homer, have you found anything which provides better performance (or even as good) than the 2 element Quad?

I can't recall who it was then, but someone I talked with was using a full wave rectangular shaped loop, (1005/freq^MHz) as a single element bi-directional/ semi-omni, but it had a 2.75:1 ratio and was fed at the center of a long side, so in 11m terms a 13.5'H x 5'W loop for vertical, fed 1/2 way up one side, or a 13.5'W x 5'H for horizontal.
This shape is supposed to drop the feed point impedance to about 50Ω so it can be directly fed by 50Ω coax and is supposed to provide about 2dB gain over a dipole with much less noise and commensurate receive gain.

I haven't tried one yet, but may. Might be an interesting comparison to erect it where I now have the lower Gainmaster and use the higher one for comparison to see if it beats it.

 

[Needle Bender]

I have a rectangle in the attic. It is better than the square was I don't know how it would do outside.

I have not had any other beam up at the same time as the quad, but if a subjective impression has any value I'd say the Moxon works as well for me.

That surprises me about the Moxon, but also makes me wonder how (& how well) you tuned your 2 element Quad? Getting the reflector dialed is the key for best performance.

NB,

I have used a pair of co phased delta loops for 11 meters, horizontal polarized, using rg-6 for impedance matching.

Those delta loops worked great. Had them about 18' off the ground hanging between the tower and a tree.

Nice quiet and very broad banded, was able to use it up into the phone portion of 10 meters.

RG-11 is cool, handles just like RG-8.

How far apart were the two loops? I've read that .675wl is about the best for gain when using any type of 'collinear', (if that's basically what yours were, side by side horizontal Delta Loops?).

That's a cool idea, and I bet you had ears from hell!

 

[regencycb]

Should I do this it will have to wait until Spring. I sold the AP for chicken feed, and parts of the V4k is in the 5/8 currently in the air.

The loop is out there and needs to be restrung with the wire element. We'll see.

Of course, the loop isn't an Omni Vertical, but . . .

Homer
Have you any experience with a true quad loop where the elements are oriented in the true horizontal and vertical planes some describe this as a box design rather than the diamond one. mounted in this way {true quad }the feedpoint would be in the center of one of the sides for vertical not the corner of the diamond. An oldtime 11 mtr operator near me used to build them and had done extensive testing . if you dont have a copy of the orr quad antenna handbook get one it may fit into some of your projects

72+1 RCB

 

[HomerBB]

Thanks, RCB.
I'll try to get a copy.
No, I have done mine in the diamond configuration. Perhaps I'll give it a rum as a Box.

@Marconi. Hate we couldn't hook up when I was in Houston. I contracted a miserable cold while there and so it is just as well I didn't hand it off to you.

If you are well, and wish, I'd like to see some of these antennas modeled with the Current Maximums at equal elevation rather than either the tips or the feedpoints. I have read here and there from reputable antenna aficionados that the real comparisons should be made with such a method, and that results will be so similar between antenna types compared in that way that it would be virtually undetectable for differences.

 

[Truck]

I'm a big fan of the Sirio antennas. Have tried the higher end ones. The V4k was the best performing initially but developed problems quick. It is very limber. The dead soft aluminum stinger bent over the initial install on a couple customers V4k just from the whiplash of the antenna due to climbing down the tower! So we got smart and started fitting them with steel whips for the stinger. That solved that but it wasn't long after that 50 mph winds were bowing the vertical section. Then the ones that survived met snow.... We had snow and rain one day and 4 customers antennas swr went through the roof. After pulling each one down, the problem was the gamma match. Pulled them out and they were charcoal black. I think water got down in it and shorted out the gamma. Some of these people were barefoot and up to 1500w.
We all went to Sirio 827 and have had nothing but great luck. They are built like a tank.

 

[BOOTY MONSTER]

a few of us have built stronger versions of the v4k truck . some beefed up their sirio and some built them from scratch . great antenna if it can handle the weather where it's installed !!! making the gamma waterproof is a must on any version .

 

[Truck]

I am impressed with the performance of it for sure. Might would be a good idea to call up dx engineering for some better grade aluminum.

 

[BOOTY MONSTER]

that's where i got my tubing from to make mine . i double walled the two lower sections .......

here's a link to a thread i did on making it .

http://www.worldwidedx.com/home-brew/102961-booty-4-a.html

my initial ideas for the build weren't as strong as i wanted ... the end of page 8 (post 79 and 80) is where i finally started getting what i was looking for , and i changed the way the basket elements connect to the loop a few pages later .. as well as their connecting sections to change their length . i ended up using homerbb's idea of using pex for the insulator on the gamma . thanks again homer

 

[HomerBB]

Truck, I always seal the Gamma Match.

Go to this link and read down about 4 - 5 posts. The V4k can be built strongly.

Vector 400 remake - post #53

 

[wavrider]

NB,
Not trying to hijack the thread but to answer your questions, I had them .625 WL spacing give or take.

Receive was GREAT in the direction of the loops and deep nulls off the ends.

I still have the antenna and yes they are side by side. I am thinking of putting them back up again as they worked so well.

How far apart were the two loops? I've read that .675wl is about the best for gain when using any type of 'collinear', (if that's basically what yours were, side by side horizontal Delta Loops?).

That's a cool idea, and I bet you had ears from hell![/QUOTE]

 

[Marconi]

Thanks, RCB.
I'll try to get a copy.
No, I have done mine in the diamond configuration. Perhaps I'll give it a rum as a Box.

@Marconi. Hate we couldn't hook up when I was in Houston. I contracted a miserable cold while there and so it is just as well I didn't hand it off to you.

If you are well, and wish, I'd like to see some of these antennas modeled with the Current Maximums at equal elevation rather than either the tips or the feedpoints. I have read here and there from reputable antenna aficionados that the real comparisons should be made with such a method, and that results will be so similar between antenna types compared in that way that it would be virtually undetectable for differences.

I have had some luck with my guesstimate of the Mr. Coily Enforcer coil on a 5/8 wave with your antenna dimensions, but I think I got the coil diameter a little too big at 4.5" inches diameter. I can get a good match feeding directly at the coil itself, but that is not the actual feed point for this tapped coil inductor on this antenna. Homer that factor would apply to your antenna as well.

Note that the tap point is where it shows to be on the coil image below...under the black disk at the SO239, and not on the coil itself.



Plus the Eznec Average Gain function does not show a good result, so the model results are less than reliable when the source tap point is located on the coil itself.

I also re-configured the match to include the actual feed point support setup below the coil, including the connecting rod up and over to the coil, but so far that doesn't work out good either. I think a matching inductor has to be more accurate to overall length and dimensions than I have guess-ta-mated here.

If I can get some good dimensions for the Enforcer coil, get the model more correct, and see some better results all around...then I will send you some comparison models mounted at the same current maximum. You will have to remind me of the models by the name captioned for each however.

 

[Marconi]

Ok Homer. I made the coil 4" inches in diameter, and now the tap point is at the right point on the coil, and the Average Gain is very good as noted in the PDF file. This model still does not have the feed point setup as noted on the image of the Enforcer I posted earlier, so the feed point is still located in the wrong place on this model, but it shows to match pretty well setup this way.

View attachment Homer's 5_8w with 4' coil.pdf

Note that the model shows almost the same gain as I previously sent you in my model captioned "Homer's 5_8w 4x108" HR new". So, according to this, so far, with the match being close to perfect on the model, and the Average Gain showing good model results, there is very little difference to be noted between this matched model and the previous model that had no matcher.

I still have to try and get the Enforcer feed point setup to working right in order for me to feel this 5/8 wave model maybe is conclusive as to possible results mounted at 36' feet over real Earth. Maybe if I get the feed point right the the resistive part of the match will look better.

This said however, I think this model is using your dimensions and that might need to be adjusted some. I think you've already said your antenna was long. If this is not right, then let me know.

 

[BOOTY MONSTER]

i do enjoy giving coily some crap for his claims sometimes ..... but he does build a damn fine looking tank of a antenna !!!

if he would put the same build quality and attention to detail onto a vector type antenna he could offer the baddest aaaz omni CB base antenna ever !!!!
IMO .
and it would even be worth the $400 - $500 he would ask for it .

 

[HomerBB]

It is looking good. I think the length of my vertical may be only 22' on the one in the air. Too cold, and I'm too sick to go outside in the rain to measure it again.
As for which antennas to work up at current maximums, the Merlin, EFHW, 5/8