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best antenna for me?

I just purchased the sirio mega watt 4000, the overall length is about 6" taller than the sirio performer 5000. Whether this makes a difference or not is not why I bought it though, I like that the base is where the connection is at and the antenna is easier to work with, less load up higher due to the way the load is made on the mega watt 4000. Not as much power handling, but I don't plan on running any big power. Here are a few photos.
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Will update on how well it works vs the 5000 performer. It seems to work well so far per the locals anyway, say I am sound top shelf. The real test will be dx'ing. Will update.
 
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I didnt say I wasnt going to not check the site out. I said I wanted to see what others used before I dig in reading that site. Im sorry I like to hear what other have to say because im not a SHEEP and fallow what one person says! Like I said I will read up on it here soon.
 
I didnt say I wasnt going to not check the site out. I said I wanted to see what others used before I dig in reading that site. Im sorry I like to hear what other have to say because im not a SHEEP and fallow what one person says! Like I said I will read up on it here soon.

No offence, but having someone tell you what antenna worked good in their application vs reading a little theory sounds a little more "sheepish" to me.
 
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JMO, read the theory. Get some learn on. These Guys know what they speak of through experience. I have listened to many of these members advice and they speak the truth. It might not be sugar coated, but truth it is. What works for one person may not work for the other. The way I have found which antenna I like is through trial and error. And a lot of money. I tried several different antennas before settling in on one and even then I felt the need to try to make it better. Yes it's nice to hear about others experiences, but in the end the only person that it really matters to is the one that is using it. JMO. God bless. And oh yes the mega watt 4000, tuned at 1.01 on 1 and 1.1 on 40, no cutting. I could get the 1.1 reading down some if I wanted, but it is working well as is. Made contact to Australia last night with it. I like the design a little better than the performer 5000 as it's about 1/2 the weight. The whip is of the same type as the performer 5000, but is about 6" taller. This puts this antenna at the 7ft mark. I am going to use this as my dx antenna as it is now almost 16 to the tip. It definitely is taller than the 5000. And it tuned the same out of the box, just as well if not better than the 5000. They don't handle the power the 5000 does and I need to some highway testing before I say anymore, but this is a decent antenna so far. Will keep updating
 
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Thanks 222. Yea there is a ton of good reads on that site. I was skipping through it and seems this guy knows his stuff. I myself don't know to much about it.
I can understand how and why one antenna works for one guy and is completely different for the other guy. Its like this. You put cooper tires on a dodge and give it a road test. then you do the same road test but with a ford. you will get different times because the application isn't the same.

I can do a longer whip if I want. I have never grounded a antenna so I have to read up on that. The best antenna I ever had was a Wilson 5K but I just hooked that to the mirror. Not sure if this helps but my trailer is all aluminum. I really like the look of when I see 2 antennas on the mirrors tilted forward. I call them bull horns and to me they look cool haha.
 
Best I have found if you don't want to drill holes is sirio mag 145 PL and either sirio Hy Power 4000, Megawatt 4000 or Performer S000, nothing between them worth talking about, if I'm honest hy power 4000 is my favourite but that's because was first one I used, megawatt I see no difference in and I haven't used a performer but I'm informed by reliable people again there's not any noticable difference,

if you are going to drill a hole, seek out a 108 " whip, there's places on e bay sell two piece ones that are tuneable, its the only antenna I know will beat the sirio range, still wish I had an avanti av261m as I reckon that would run them close too I used them extensively in 80's, just blew k40's away. Or mount your sirio through the body, sirio do body mounts for 4/5000 range too, and if you buy a proper sirio one should come with mil spec M17/28 or RG58 as it is known.

But to be honest none are going to show huge improvement over your wilson, except maybe the 108" whip, I don't know why they sell 102" steel whips, back in the day only full 1/4 wave whip that were 102" were fibreglass covered, and were only so due to that fibreglass coating slowing the velocity of the signal, just like coax does. Fibreglass has a different velocity factor to air, which is why fibreglass antennas were shorter.

I'm old enough to remember the only stainless whips in the USA were 108" and had to be trimmed for your cb band, most were shipped to the UK as CB was legalised here and somewhere along the line some mong has started making 102" whips with an air dielectric which are too short and need a spring added.

I'm sure there's plenty others on here old enough to remember 108" whips in the USA,

Here's the arithmetic, feel free to dispute it guys.

A stainless steel whip has approx .97-.98 velocity factor in air.your centre frequency is 27.205, I'll do both and you can split hairs about the difference but both I guarantee will show why your 102" whip is too short.

I will do it in metres and convert to imperial measures for you guys over the pond that ain't caught up with rest of the world :) 3.28 x Metres gives feet, 12 x feet gives inches.

Here goes, first .98 then .97 Velocity Factors.

.98
300/27.205 for wavelength then divide by 4 for a 1/4 wave = 2.7568462m up to that point equation is the same. Now add x. 98 or x 98%

2.7568462m x .98 = 2.7017093m x 3.28 convert to feet = 8.8616063 ft x 12 to convert to inches = 106.33928" or 106 and a 1/3 inches approx.


Now for .97
2.7568462m x .97 = 2.6741408m x 3.28 = 8.7711818 ft x 12 = 105.25418" or 105 and a 1/4 inches approx.


Now you know why your 102" whip don't tune without a spring that surprise surprise has about 4 inch of braid running up centre of it, its at least 3 going on 4 inches too short for your band. Then you compound that by using a swr meter too get a 50 ohm match as you can't accept the best possible swr it can have at resonance of 1.3:1 or 1.4:1 approx 36 ohms

50/36 = Its actually 1.3888889:1 to be exact, but let's not split hairs, so what do you do too get that 50 ohm 1.0:1 swr reading, yup you guessed it, you detune it and add capacitive or inductive reactance by making it too short or too long, so its no longer resonant on 27.205, if you don't believe me go get an mfj or whatever analyser and match your 1/4 wave for 1.0:1 swr and I guarantee you see reactance at 27.205 Mhz and resonance elsewhere depending if you used capacitive or inductive reactance, Incidentally the coil does not add inductive reactance due to the braid shorting it out.

I await the onslaught :pop::pop:
 
Fair do's, I always assumed you guys tuned for ch 20 not 19, but it will make little difference to the figures.

.98 at 27.185 = 106.41751" or 106 and 2/5" approx
.97 at 27.185 = 105.33162" or 105 and a 1/3" approx

So its even worse than for ch20 :) ,still doesn't change the facts. :p
 
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Fair do's, I always assumed you guys tuned for ch 20 not 19, but it will make little difference to the figures.

.98 at 27.185 = 106.41751" or 106 and 2/5" approx
.97 at 27.185 = 105.33162" or 105 and a 1/3" approx

So its even worse than for ch20 :) ,still doesn't change the facts. :p
It's 20kc off center and won't make a hill of beans really. I just like to poke a rib everytime I see people modeling, plotting and calculating all the while using channel numbers as the center of CB vs the freqs of CB.
 
Here's the arithmetic, feel free to dispute it guys.

I have no disputes with your math, but your starting figures are in error...

A stainless steel whip has approx .97-.98 velocity factor in air.

I am curious where you got these numbers. They seem a bit low to me. The dielectric constant of air is essentially 1.0, and there isn't enough resistance in stainless steel to cause that much of a drop in velocity factor on its own.

your centre frequency is 27.205

359 got to this one first, not that it will make that much of a difference in overall calculations, but channel 20 is not the middle frequency of the CB band, although a lot of people treat it like it is. Channel 19 is. The reason is there are five skipped "channles" along the lower frequency range of the CB band... The gaps between some frequencies are larger than the others, almost like they skipped some frequencies in the process. These gaps occur between channels 3 and 4, 7 and 8, 11 and 12, 15 and 16, and 19 and 20. These shift the center frequency some... 359 already did the math... Those gaps are from older RC (radio controlled) channels, although I think they are still allowed for RC use I don't think they are typically used for that anymore.

And something from later...

so what do you do too get that 50 ohm 1.0:1 swr reading, yup you guessed it, you detune it and add capacitive or inductive reactance by making it too short or too long, so its no longer resonant

Actually you are missing the key item that affects the antennas readings on a vehicle, ground losses. It is possible to have such an antenna tuned to resonance on the car and still get a 1:1 SWR, the reason is that the ground losses from the inefficient ground system that is every vehicle in existance adds to the resistive part of impedance, so if that impedance is low like it naturally is for this type of antenna, ground losses will appear to get you closer to an SWR match, but this comes at the expense of performance...

Also, just as a note, tuning an antenna with a different natural impedance from the feedline you are using off of resonance will never net you a perfect 1:1 SWR to that feedline, but it can actually lower the SWR to some extent depending on the antenna, also at the cost of performance... This does not apply if you are using some form of matching network for the antenna.


The DB
 
"Quote:Originally Posted by jazzsinger View Post
A stainless steel whip has approx .97-.98 velocity factor in air."

"I am curious where you got these numbers. They seem a bit low to me. The dielectric constant of air is essentially 1.0, and there isn't enough resistance in stainless steel to cause that much of a drop in velocity factor on its own."

That VF figure is the common one for 'wire' antennas. If you really want a 'closer' estimate than that, the ARRL HandBook has a method for figuring VF for various conductor sizes. That method is not exact by any means, it's only a 'ball-park' figure, which is all any of the published VFs are.
- 'Doc
 
That VF figure is the common one for 'wire' antennas. If you really want a 'closer' estimate than that, the ARRL HandBook has a method for figuring VF for various conductor sizes. That method is not exact by any means, it's only a 'ball-park' figure, which is all any of the published VFs are.
- 'Doc

Does it? In the ARRL Handbook I have it doesn't give a formula, and simply states that it is "about 95%". It doesn't say what the wire is made out of, or how thick it is, or if there is an insulator of some sort around it, ect. The ARRL Antenna Book doesn't even seem to have that much information.

Every source I look at that differentiates between insulated and bare wire states that bare wires, no matter the material, have a velocity factor of essentially 1.0.

That is just the info I have, I'de love to see a formula on this...


The DB
 
I have no disputes with your math, but your starting figures are in error...



I am curious where you got these numbers. They seem a bit low to me. The dielectric constant of air is essentially 1.0, and there isn't enough resistance in stainless steel to cause that much of a drop in velocity factor on its own.



359 got to this one first, not that it will make that much of a difference in overall calculations, but channel 20 is not the middle frequency of the CB band, although a lot of people treat it like it is. Channel 19 is. The reason is there are five skipped "channles" along the lower frequency range of the CB band... The gaps between some frequencies are larger than the others, almost like they skipped some frequencies in the process. These gaps occur between channels 3 and 4, 7 and 8, 11 and 12, 15 and 16, and 19 and 20. These shift the center frequency some... 359 already did the math... Those gaps are from older RC (radio controlled) channels, although I think they are still allowed for RC use I don't think they are typically used for that anymore.

And something from later...



Actually you are missing the key item that affects the antennas readings on a vehicle, ground losses. It is possible to have such an antenna tuned to resonance on the car and still get a 1:1 SWR, the reason is that the ground losses from the inefficient ground system that is every vehicle in existance adds to the resistive part of impedance, so if that impedance is low like it naturally is for this type of antenna, ground losses will appear to get you closer to an SWR match, but this comes at the expense of performance...

Also, just as a note, tuning an antenna with a different natural impedance from the feedline you are using off of resonance will never net you a perfect 1:1 SWR to that feedline, but it can actually lower the SWR to some extent depending on the antenna, also at the cost of performance... This does not apply if you are using some form of matching network for the antenna.


The DB

bare in mind I'm from uk where frequencies don't have skips, so yeah a minor oversight. not to mention one most of your fellow Americans make too.

I haven't used midband for 35 years due to qrm from you guys and Italians/Spanish running mega power and mega splatter on Antiquated Modulation.

I have always found .98-.97 to be about right when building antennas, as opposed to the 95% quoted in many books and used on most antenna calculators, again its still minor, and doesn't change the fact the reason why 102" whips are too short.

I'm well aware of the alpha channels and why they were restricted and also why 23 comes after 24 and 25 frequency wise as they filled in the 30 Khz jump between 22 and 23 when they added the extra 17 channels to the original 23. I've been on cb since 78, i used fcc gear for the first year or so, a president ar7 to be precise.


velocity factor of air varies with, purity, altitude, weather, and other things too, unless you have 100% pure air which thanks to fannies at Chernobyl and your government detonating high altitude nuclear bombs, amongst many other things ain't gonna be the case, as W5LZ says its a ballpark figure , not often I agree with Doc. But was the reason i suggested 108" whips to tune out all these variable quantities.

where do you get dielectric constant of air is 1.0 ? Google it, I think you'll find others differ.

Even more important what makes you think its resistance that causes velocity factor, i think you'll find its more due to what surrounds conductor than what conductor is made off or how conductive it is, otherwise all coax being made from copper would have the same velocity factor, it doesn't, the dielectric dictates the velocity factor not the conductor, the more air it contains the higher the figure, but none are 1 or 100%, fibre optic cables have velocity factors too, but they are pretty shit at conducting electricity.

I never forgot to mention the ground losses, I chose not too, they are so unpredictable and depending on mounting location can even vary on different parts of the same vehicle. It wasn't worth mentioning as most people fail to grasp it anyway. I'm glad you do.

Just the same as you choose not to model lossy coils as its most likely beyond the capability of your modeling software's limitations. I ain't seen an antenna modelled yet that had the coil figured in. All I see are straight wires, not many of those in coils.

Do you model real ground conditions or just believe antennas hang in mid air, cause i ain't seeing masts or coax modelled either. Would be great if antennas behaved in the REAL world as they do in cyber space, but sadly they don't.

How do you know the guy who wrote the software hasn't fucked up programming it, because most of it looks seriously flawed to me. Which is why I don't bother my arse with it. Blind faith is very common, look at all the religious fuckwits in the world that follow without question and believe a wee man in the sky is looking down on their every move, don't mean they ain't deluded like those who think an A99 has more gain than a 3 element beam, blind faith again.

you say you can never match to 1.0:1 with tuning in reactance, tell a swr meter that, not to mention the fact not all coax is actually 50 ohms, many are 51 or 52 ohms and other values, also you can't be assured an antenna analyser is 100% accurate, especially Mississippi's finest junk ones. There's a small thing called manufacturing tolerance that ensures that. So it really depends how low your swr was to begin with.

We could nitpick all day but bottom line is, anyone buying a 102" will struggle to tune it, that was the main point I was trying to convey, so outwith all these minor niggles,

is there anything wrong with my Arithmetic,

Because I've got a very high grade in it in what once was the best education system in the world? I was tested in it at Glasgow university at 11 years of age and got an A, 5 years later when it counted at the exams, I sat in the hall for 10 minutes for 100 questions and got an A again, just to prove it wasn't a fluke the first time,

I got to meet Johny Ball a highly rated mathematician at Glasgow Uni, Zoe Ball's dad, the same Zoe Ball married to Norman Cook (Fatboy Slim) and he was amazed at my mental Arithmetic, which in those days my brain wasn't as fried from weed and I didn't trust calculators, as batteries run low and they are erratic when that happens.

I also proved a teacher wrong at secondary school who dragged me to head of maths dept, as I was apparently insolent because I demanded 100/100 instead of the 99/100 she gave me from marking from a book, he got her answer the first time because he used the formula in the book the same as she did, when i pointed out the book formula was wrong he done it my way and got my answer, did it a third time and got my answer, then told her there is a big difference between insolence and confidence, He made her apologise to me in front of 30 odd 16 year olds.

I was 13 years old and proved two teachers wrong, one of whom i admire greatly because he listened to reason and was open minded enough to realise a book might just be wrong, and a 13 year old might just be smarter than them both.

Just the same as Lou Franklin got it wrong in understanding and repairing cb radios, as he used the formula for 95% (which was commonly used for making wire antennas) velocity factor instead of 100%, that's why his length was 5% out, his proof reader missed it, i didn't, i also didn't miss his claim an Avanti Moonraker has a driven quad element when in fact it is driven by gamma matched Yagi element.

I question everything, especially where figures are concerned.

JAZZ 73
 

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