Dave Made m400 or Xforce TNT T1200LD-M

[Road Squawker]

...I have read this quadruple stuff before. That is talking about audio being perceived as twice a loud to the human ear and not S unit. When you double your wattage, you are gaining 3 db's. 3 db's equal one S unit... It will be RMS wattage too and not PEP wattage. .

no, it is talking about dB's, it's pretty obvious that you don't know WHAT a decibel really is.

I'll give ya a hint,... it's 1/10 of a Bel.

whats next??? Dosy watts Vs Bird watts?

 

[bassman21]

I'm done discussing this. I want to keep this thread about the two amps. I'm not going to turn this into the same debate by people that dislike CBer's running power. I have read similar thread and it's the same thing being spewed by the same people. I don't care about what your 1960s radio theory books say. I know from experience what it takes to be heard and respected on 11 meters. It ain't happening with 200 watts pep. I know the guy with 600 watts RMS will talk further than the guy with 100 watts RMS. Sure if everyone else kept it clean it would be a different story, but they don't. It would be a different story if the FCC had put CB on a frequency that doesn't propagate the way it does. If so many devices didn't interfere on 11 meters.

 

[222DBFL]

I wish one of the amp gurus like Crusher or others would step in and explain to you that by pushing that amp to 1kw is going to send it to an early retirement. And like I said good luck finding Toshiba 2879's for a good price if you blow one by using that amp at a kW. It's your amp and you seem to know best. I would never take my 4 pill and drive it that hard, and yes I have more than one amp, but to each his own. Just be forewarned that if you blow a transistor you are going to be kicking yourself in the ass!! And as far as overdriving it, if you don't think you are, ask someone with some real amp setups what the input into a 1x4 amp should be, I don't care who and how it was built. 4 2879 Toshiba transistors will do more than 100 watts no doubt, but like I said, it's your amp if you want to run it like you are in a competition at twice what it should be doing, you go right ahead, but remember Toshiba 2879's aren't cheap and are hard to find if you don't know the right people. And no I am not one to bash using power. Hell I have several Amps for 11m, but through learning I too saw the light. Maybe one day you will as well and stop looking so much at watt meters aka how clean that signal is. I can make a kW with my tnt 600hd if I want to, and I have, but it didn't make one bit of difference from 500-600 to 1kw watts. Just created heat and pretty numbers on the watt meter. But it didn't get me out any further than the 500 watts did. So again, I say to you, do what you like but remember you've been warned that by doing this you are sending your 1x4 to an early grave I don't give a shit of the Pope built the MF'er!! When you let go of the mentality you have you will see the light, until then keep on over driving your amp. And good luck to you since you know it all and have been a cb'er for years so you know best!! Have a great day!!!

 

[bassman21]

You must have missed when I said I was going to run it at 800 watts.

 

[Yeti Communications Ltd]

200w per pill ...awesome

 

[222DBFL]

Like I said. Good luck finding repacement Toshiba 2879's. But hey what the hell do I know. Let the amp gurus explain it more. Can't talk to a brick wall I suppose.

 

[bassman21]

So does anyone else have any input between the two amp?

 

[tba02]

So does anyone else have any input between the two amp?

Well, you are comparing apples and plums.
1x4 targeting an honest 500 watts vs a 2x6 targeting 750 watts (PEP).
I know they will do more, but at the end of they day the math is the same.

I can't find a price on the davemade but the difference between a TNT 1x4 and 2x6 is $265. Add the additional cost of the higher amperage power supply and antenna/station work, that seems a lot for a little. But hey, that is your decision.

Personal experience is that there have been very few times where 600 watts has made a significant difference over 320 watts - but if you are chasing the edges it can matter - but it comes at a price.

I can't say which, if either, is a better builder but I have never heard anything about a davemade being used on sideband. I have heard TNT amps on SSB channels and not been offended.

If you have the cash, go big. You can always dial it back. Again, it goes back to what you want to accomplish and how much work you want to put into the system.

 

[bassman21]

I want to thank everyone for the help and suggestions. I decided to cancel the Xforce order and keep the Dave Made. I really don't think it will make much difference and will end up drawing more power. As it is with this class C at 1 KW, the RPM's on the motor is dropping when idle. Class B at the same wattage with more transistors will be even worst.

This amp is really getting out. I connected it to another meter and got the same results. On the Cobra, I ended up setting the potentiometer on the amp to 3 o'clock for easy reference. Anything higher other than wide open gives an unstable dead key and it wants to go close to or over 1000. At 3 o'clock with a .75 watt dead key, with the amp on, it is dead keying 125 watts and swinging to 700 PEP. RMS is 450 (double my Texas Star). RPM's at idle isn't dropping much at all either. Nice to know I have the reserve if I need it briefly through.

 

[jessejamesdallas]

I want to thank everyone for the help and suggestions. I decided to cancel the Xforce order and keep the Dave Made. I really don't think it will make much difference and will end up drawing more power. As it is with this class C at 1 KW, the RPM's on the motor is dropping when idle. Class B at the same wattage with more transistors will be even worst.

This amp is really getting out. I connected it to another meter and got the same results. On the Cobra, I ended up setting the potentiometer on the amp to 3 o'clock for easy reference. Anything higher other than wide open gives an unstable dead key and it wants to go close to or over 1000. At 3 o'clock with a .75 watt dead key, with the amp on, it is dead keying 125 watts and swinging to 700 PEP. RMS is 450 (double my Texas Star). RPM's at idle isn't dropping much at all either. Nice to know I have the reserve if I need it briefly through.

wise decision grasshopper...not enough of a difference that anyone is going to notice on the receiving-end between those two...I could see the upgrade if you were looking for something to use on SSB tho...But AM, just stick with the DM.

 

[fourstringburn]

I know from experience what it takes to be heard and respected on 11 meters. It ain't happening with 200 watts pep. I know the guy with 600 watts RMS will talk further than the guy with 100 watts RMS

You got a lot to learn.

Power is only one aspect. The difference between 200 watts and 600 watts is less than one signal strength on your S meter. Hardly a difference, That's a fact!

An antenna system of good engineering and design and installed at optimum heights for the frequency being used and preferably over good soil or salt water can make even a 4 watt station broadcast with very good results.

When you double your wattage, you are gaining 3 db's. 3 db's equal one S unit

WRONG!!!

6 DB's equals 1 signal strength and you have to multiply your wattage by 4 not 2.

Go back and read those 1960's books because those publications were written by people who know radio communications and antennas and maybe you might learn something more than "WATTS" !!!

 

[fourstringburn]

Also if your station is mobile, just because you Dosy meter says 1Kw output doesn't mean you are actually broadcasting 1Kw. This is where you need to learn about effective radiating power or ERP.

Mobile radios stations can have big losses mostly due to antenna loading coils ( even 1/4 wave whips have efficiency drawbacks), ground impedance losses to due to inadequate mounting heights, and a inadequate ground plane.

As long as you have a big connex or galaxy radio hooked to a davemade with a big coily antenna, all the above is nulled out because those 1960's books are outdated and that stuff doesn't apply anymore or at least on 11 meters.

 

[bassman21]

Might I suggest How to Win Friends & Influence People by Dale Carnegie. It's a book written years ago that has helped a lot of people. One thing he taught was that being a know it all and telling everyone else they are wrong isn't a good way to socialize with people. SOME people on these forums (and others) love to get out their black boards and teach people a lesson when they didn't ask for one. They love to create a debate when the OP doesn't want one. It doesn't do anything except create negativity, start arguments, make people feel bad and discourage people from asking questions. It's also annoying to those searching for answers to the original question which was what amp I should get and see a flame war. The come back when this is pointed out is always "If you don't want my help then fine" and "you'll learn the hard way, keep doing what you're doing" which creates more negativity. Social skills go a long way in life and having them can make your life a lot better. There is a reason why some people always have conflict with others and others don't. Furthermore just because someone doesn't know something you know, doesn't make you any smarter or better than that person. Finally we are all at different points in life. Some are younger than others. Some things have just not been leaned because we have other priorities in life. Not everyone has to learn it all in one sitting. Also you can't assume everyone new on the forum doesn't have any knowledge of radio. Just because I talk on CB doesn't mean I'm one of those guys that chain smoke, drink, walk around barefooted, drive a beat up pickup with a 102 whip, living in a trailer and yell into my mic with the echo turned up too high trying to get every last watt out. I'm actually an IT professional and make pretty good money. I also have a tested IQ well above average.

My point was that FM radio stations in the USA run up to 100 thousand watts or more for older stations. With the logic here they could save a lot of money by cutting their wattage in half as it will not make much difference. The reality is if that station cuts their power in half they will be noticeably weaker at a distance. The more wattage you run, the stronger you're going to be, plain an simple. It isn't just about the numbers on people's signal meter. I don't need to know all the math formulas right now. Yes I get it that the efficiency of those watts decline the higher you go. I know antenna DB gain, antenna height, the quality of the amp and the quality of the radio are all a factor. Yes I understand RMS and PEP also make a difference. Yes I know you don't want to overdrive an amp. Yes I understand harmonics and intermod. Yes I understand SWR's. Yes I understand the FCC rules. Yes I understand the power requirements and wire gauge of these amps. I understand the antenna makes a difference. I understand the importance of a ground. Yes I understand what an RF choke is. No I don't know everything. Yes I'm willing to learn new things. Yes I welcome input. What I don't like is people ganging up on me and telling me I have a lot to learn.

 

[222DBFL]

I want to apologize there bassman21, it's your amp, you run it as you see fit. But just be forewarned, toshiba 2879's aren't cheap these days. Maybe you and BBI can come up with a new amp with your theory's and his expert building LOL!!! Have a wonderful day!!!

 

[fourstringburn]

I'm actually an IT professional and make pretty good money. I also have a tested IQ well above average

That's impressive for your high IQ but you sure don't convey it very well.

Your guilty of what you just said by bashing radio publications even if they are old. What you are really covertly doing is bashing hams, like you and your friends know better because you run a big CB radio with lots of power.

Whether you like it or not, ham guys wrote the books on what is and what isn't on radio communications and have been following the tradition since the days of Marconi. All the knowledge you and your friends learned came from that. CB's came later as more of a toy for the general public.

Your posts have inaccuracies that you been corrected on and you haven't acknowledged that.

Your posts also have multiple examples of spelling and punctuation errors so that along with your incorrect data, it shows more of your ignorance rather than your above average intelligence.

You also just contradicted yourself with your own expertise on power usage. Read the examples below.

Earlier you said,

I know from experience what it takes to be heard and respected on 11 meters. It ain't happening with 200 watts pep. I know the guy with 600 watts RMS will talk further than the guy with 100 watts RMS

And now you say,

My point was that FM radio stations in the USA run up to 100 thousand watts or more for older stations. With the logic here they could save a lot of money by cutting their wattage in half as it will not make much difference

200 watts is almost half the power of 600 watts and according to you it ain't happening and won't talk as far away, yet you just said a FM station could run half the power and not make much of any difference.

Oh but wait, your talking a different mode of operation, not AM with a class C amp so FM doesn't count either.

I would love to hear your detailed explanations on DB gain, antenna theories, SWR, ( sorry, I meant SWR's), FCC rules, Grounds, Harmonics and IMD, or intermod as you call it, and everything else associated with radio communications since I now believe I got it all wrong all these years.