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DIPOLE GONE WRONG, PLEASE HELP

Yep. You get what you pay for.

Could you please explain that remark?

I have heard and read reveiws of people having great success with END fed antennas and it fit my particular prediciment better.

Im following the manufactures recomendation, so could you please explain how you are being a freindly ham with sarcastic remarks that are not helpful?
 
"Let me ask a few questions so I might understand?
Do you have a vhf/uhf antenna hooked up?
Have you made any contacts at all or have you just heard other stations?
What are you using to check swr? is it the built in meter on the radio?
Who assembled the coax? Is shield soldered to the PL-259 "ground"?
Is the centers soldered the PL=259? "

No VHF/UHF antenna hooked up, except when I tested the VHF/IHF side and made plenty of contacts on my usual repeaters

Made only UHF/VHF contacts , only heard HF

SWR is checked with the LDG at100 pro Auto tuner with built in power meter and swr meter and also I have the swr meter up on the radio but that seems kinda useless

All Coax is bran new out of the box. Besides the homemade center fed I made which is no longer in use, I didn’t solder a thing. Its all bran new factory conntection

And I am in the HF antenna port, I promise. Which is not labeled by yaesue, which I think is dumb. You have to look at the book. They don’t even write ANT1 ANT2 Kinda bad on yasues parts



ff

Here's something else to think about.
That fire escape, being metal, is going to affect any antenna 'near' it. That 'near' is relative, and not necessarily 'bad'. For one thing, it's going to make any antenna sort of directional, at least in some directions, usually less signal from the 'side' the fire escape is on. Sort of a 'reflector'.
That mass of metal is also going to act as a "ground" to some extent. Which isn't necessarily 'bad' at all. If you can use that characteristic in a beneficial manner, do so, why not!? The 'flip-side' to that is that mass of metal then becomes part of the antenna, will radiate, and means you've got an antenna -that- close to other people's electronics. (See where that could be a problem in an apartment building?)
As antennas go, the best producer of a radiated signal has both resonance and impedance matching. The less of either of those characteristics means less efficiency and radiated signal. Then there are antennas used on multiple bands. They always will be less 'efficient', but will certainly work. How well they work just depends on what you are willing to 'give up' on those non-resonant bands. (I've found that I can give up quite a bit of that 'best' stuff and still have a very usable antenna.)

With the 'end fed' antenna that you have, and from reading it's advertisement, I figure the manufacturer is using the feed line as the 'other half' of that antenna, the counterpoise, 'ground', whatever you want to call it. While that can certainly be done, it always has complications of one sort or another. One of those complications is that the usable SWR bandwidth of that antenna is going to be fairly narrow. Another is that the positioning of that feed line is going to get sort of 'picky'. There are so many variations to that, that there are probably several 'ways' of going about it, and I'm not about to make any recommendations as to how to go about it! Play with it and see?

And here are some observations about the manufacturer's line of antennas. All of them are only variations of things that other manufacturers have had for years. Some of them are only 'good' for very particular situations! Some, you couldn't pay me to use because of experience with them! You will notice that there are no performance specifications given, they leave that to your imagination. (The ones copied from 'B&W' are perfect examples. Don't just put those down, go wash your hands!)

Being one of those naturally 'cheap' people, I don't like buying antennas, I'd rather make them. That means that I very seldom ever have the 'best' antennas, but they 'work' well enough (for me?). One suggestion would be to use that @#$ fire escape as the "groundplane" (hate that word), and a 1/4 wave as the radiating thingy. That's fairly easy for the higher HF bands, and not impossible for the lower ones. I think you might be surprised at the results.
Good luck with it.
- 'Doc


All of the above is a 'generalization'. That means that there are a number of variations possible with any of it, and never always 'correct' as stated.

Doc thanks for all the comments and disclosure. There is alot of theory behind what you just said. Although im very appreciative of everything you wrote, im not exactly sure how it is going to help me. I have heard already from numerous people that store bought antennas are lame and you would rather build your own ect ect. That's awesome, however a store bought antenna is what i have and what i bought. Now im stuck with making it work. And that is what im trying to gather suggestions on. I heard the same comments from packrat earlier . ' how im foolish for buying store bought antennas" and loads of other non useful comments in first post in this thread that i just let roll of my back. ( assuming that a freindly ham would not actually intend to insult another) Im all for constructive criticism but that isn't really it in my humble opinion.

So out of all of that all i got was go back to your old dipole you made.
I have attached a picture below as to why it was discarded


And use the fire escape as a ground plane.
But no suggestions were given? Isn't that the point of this?
That would be similar to me telling someone to build me a rocket ship. With nothing further

Both which are legit thoughts and i appreciate the ideas greatly
However, my old dipole is made of bare copper wire which scares me a bit. Can Bare copper wire with RF start a fire? Im assuming so seeing as it can burn your hand. Can Speaker wire be used? At least the black jacketed wire looks like plastic .
My dipole was most likely full of flaws. It was the first antenna i ever built hence to eliminate possible issues i discarded it.

Here is a drawing of the original center fed I made, and some notes as to why it was discarded

Any further comments, suggestions or CORRECTIVE criticism I am extremely grateful for


HomeMadeAnt.png
 
You really need to learn how to read and comprehend. I never said nor insinuated you were foolish, just stated facts that would be helpful to anyone who could read. You seem so caught up in your own opinions that you cant even follow instructions on how to fix your problems from the people here who are trying to help, and continue to slam those who do reply. If you know so damned much about what you are doing, why do you even ask for our stupid input?
I dont know why we even bother!
 
You really need to learn how to read and comprehend. I never said nor insinuated you were foolish, just stated facts that would be helpful to anyone who could read. You seem so caught up in your own opinions that you cant even follow instructions on how to fix your problems from the people here who are trying to help, and continue to slam those who do reply. If you know so damned much about what you are doing, why do you even ask for our stupid input?
I dont know why we even bother!


I hate to sound like a broken record, but your antenna is 99.999% of your station. The best radio in the world is useless without a decent antenna. You should have figured out what you were doing for an antenna before you bought a radio, but you did not, so now we deal with making it workable. If you are just working 6 and 10m, at least the antennas will be a manageable size. Describe your location better. First floor, etc... access to the roof, trees nearby? Low antennas dont work well. Antennas blocked by structure dont work well. ( at least at vhf) Antennas in close proximity WILL interact. Store bought wire antennas are a waste of money.

So your trying to tell me that this was constuctive criticism? Wow

and FYI
YOU never gave me any insturctions. All you have done this entire thread is tell me what wont work!! AWESOME I GET IT!! THANKS FOR "SOUNDING LIKE A BROKEN RECORD" as you directly put it

N3JDK Even said, "dont be so hard on him" in regards to your reply
So it must not just be me if someone else told you to stop being "hard on me"



Do me a favor! dont reply! i dont need any more of your thoughts because all you have done is made derogtory comments on what WONT work!!!!



And doc said two things that made sense and then said but "im not giving any recomendation".


How is that helpful?

you have not once said, try this, or try that.

All you have managed to get out is store bought antennas are a waste of money.

Many people here have offered words of encouragment including doc. And i can thank them enough for there help. Evening the people here telling me "dont worry you will eventually get it" are a big help.


Stop replying to my thread if you are not going to help and doing nothing but bash my STORE BOUGHT ANTENNA!!!
Sorry im not as good as you and did not make one. Ill try harder next time ok!!!
 
Could you please explain that remark?

I have heard and read reveiws of people having great success with END fed antennas and it fit my particular prediciment better.

Im following the manufactures recomendation, so could you please explain how you are being a freindly ham with sarcastic remarks that are not helpful?

I asked where the counterpoise is. You said that according to the manufacturer, it's inside the balun.

A counterpoise for 10M isn't something you can conceal in something the size of a balun. Yes, many of us do use end-fed wires, but we provide a decent-sized radial field or counterpoise for the radiating element to work against. Rather than following the manufacturer's recommendation and throwing up your hands when it doesn't work as well as you think it should, I'd recommend getting a good antenna book or two and learning just HOW antennas (particularly end-fed wires) work and how they should be fed.

It sounds almost as if there's a large resistor in the balun with one wire attached to one end of it. Hard to say without actually being able to see it.

And by the way, much of the advertising by many antenna manufacturers is hogwash.
 
Dude,

You are confused. READ! I suggested removing the tuner,it is unneeded . I suggested trying a different location for your antenna, several even. I suggested taking the rig to a known good antenna to eliminate that as a problem, I suggested trying your dipole again, I suggested an indoor antenna, I suggested trying a lower band to see if you could receive there any better, I asked if your rf gain was up, I asked if you were using SSB. I suggested so many things, all VALID CONSTRUCTIVE ideas to try to help you figure out your problem, I NEVER ONCE made any negative comments about you or your station, just stated facts as I saw them, and offered ideas to help you eliminate whatever problem you are experiencing, and your reply every time is" My balcony IS the problem" . You asked for, then dismissed all ideas from everyone who has tried to help you, and have bashed me, beetle, mac and doc for giving you some ideas.
I guess engineers dont need any help.

And by the way, Doc was restating for you what I had already said about using the balcony as a positive element of your antenna SYSTEM in an earlier post that you disregarded.
 
I asked where the counterpoise is. You said that according to the manufacturer, it's inside the balun.

A counterpoise for 10M isn't something you can conceal in something the size of a balun. Yes, many of us do use end-fed wires, but we provide a decent-sized radial field or counterpoise for the radiating element to work against. Rather than following the manufacturer's recommendation and throwing up your hands when it doesn't work as well as you think it should, I'd recommend getting a good antenna book or two and learning just HOW antennas (particularly end-fed wires) work and how they should be fed.

It sounds almost as if there's a large resistor in the balun with one wire attached to one end of it. Hard to say without actually being able to see it.

And by the way, much of the advertising by many antenna manufacturers is hogwash.

Beetle

Thank you for your ideas and teaching me about END fed antennas
I apparently am putting to much faith in the manufacturer.
 
Dude,

You are confused. READ! I suggested removing the tuner,it is unneeded . I suggested trying a different location for your antenna, several even. I suggested taking the rig to a known good antenna to eliminate that as a problem, I suggested trying your dipole again, I suggested an indoor antenna, I suggested trying a lower band to see if you could receive there any better, I asked if your rf gain was up, I asked if you were using SSB. I suggested so many things, all VALID CONSTRUCTIVE ideas to try to help you figure out your problem, I NEVER ONCE made any negative comments about you or your station, just stated facts as I saw them, and offered ideas to help you eliminate whatever problem you are experiencing, and your reply every time is" My balcony IS the problem" . You asked for, then dismissed all ideas from everyone who has tried to help you, and have bashed me, beetle, mac and doc for giving you some ideas.
I guess engineers dont need any help.

And by the way, Doc was restating for you what I had already said about using the balcony as a positive element of your antenna SYSTEM in an earlier post that you disregarded.

I infact only mentioned once that the Fire Escape was the issue after seeing notable improvments when i was no where near it! Is it not safe to assume when i move away and have an improvment that, it is atleast PART of the ISSUE

You act as if i did not try your suggestions. Which in fact if you my freind "READ" would know that i did try all of your suggestions. Which is why i have gotten this far.

:bdh:

And in fact i have not bashed anyone on this thread , except for asking beetle why he at the time implied a sarcastic remark, and in regards to doc i thanked him several times in numerous locations for his thoughtful replies
and coments.

I never once dismissed any idea from anyone. So i have no idea where you got that one, when in fact i have tried everything that everyone has offered except for returning to the homemade dipole which did not work in the first place. So why would i return to it.

:bdh::bdh:

Again thank you to everyone who is offering constructive help including the suggestions from packrat
And any engineer that assumes he doesnt need help is foolish so i dont know why you would choose to make that remark
 
Let me ask a few questions so I might understand?

  1. Do you have a vhf/uhf antenna hooked up?
  2. Have you made any contacts at all or have you just heard other stations?
  3. What are you using to check swr? is it the built in meter on the radio?
  4. Who assembled the coax? Is shield soldered to the PL-259 "ground"?
  5. Is the centers soldered the PL=259?

The reason I ask, I helped a friend with the same issue.

He was swearing yelling and just generally pissed off!

Since there were 2 connectors on the back of the radio, one for HF and one for vhf/uhf,,,,,,,,,well can you guess where I am going with this? YUP, he had the HF antenna to the VHF/UHF port and was listening on HF, he heard stuff, barely.

If your connectors are not fitted properly to the coax, you will have problems also.

I have seen people strip the shield off the coax and screw the PL-259 into place and only soldered the center, no shield was even touching the "ground"

Just double check the stuff, don't take anyones word for it.

OH and check the jumpers from the radio to the tuner, those suckers fail and you will have similar issues


All good points even if they are not relevant to this problem. I had a similar problem on 6m one time. I just put up a home brew six element yagi and couldn't hear a thing. Nothing. Not even from the local repeater unless the beam was pointed straight at the repeater. The repeater usually gave me about 20/9 on a piece of wire for an antenna. I forgot to take the low pass filter out of line with the HF/6m antenna port.:whistle: It was like having 70+ dB of attenuation in line. :oops: Sometimes the answer is so simple we tend to look beyond it.
 
Reposted from e-ham:

Reply with quoteQuote
Jim said, "IOW the practical problems aren't figuring out the electrical details; they're getting the thing built and in the air."

Well said, Jim. I was afraid that I might have had to return all of the tuition collected from
over 38 years of teaching free ham radio classes.

I, for one, really enjoy the technical debates between Tom, Owen, Cecil, and Mr. Katz.
However, one must realize that these folks are on a whole different plane of thought than the
average ham operator. Without that due consideration the poor new ham will be left to a
form of paralysis by analysis. This paralysis is exactly one of the root causes of some thinking
a commercially constructed dipole is superior to a home made dipole. Or even worse, putting
an undue amount of worry about "is my antenna good enough?"
Of course the true answer that develops to all hams with experience is that no antenna is ever good enough. We all eventually develop the antenna "GAGE"---Good Ain't Good Enough."
I am not knocking the pursuit of excellence at all. I am just pointing out, as you and Phil,
we don't all have the same idea of where we want our excellence.

For most hams the joy is operating on the air and not the means of getting there."
 
Well here is a quick technical update.


I had an extreamly brillant ham freind of mine ( a different one then previous) test this with me again

He blasted a 200 watt beam directly at me

Clear as day
S9 contact no issue and i was able to get him turning my radio all the way down to 5 watts.

Which brings me to a possible thought. The house is blocking half of te antenna and i can not hear half of the world. Because my dipole does not clear the crest of the roof i can only hear in one direction

Again on another test, he went mobile and was in a different direction then previously and i again was def as a post.

Does this sound like the antenna is not high enough and the house being so close is causing me to be deaf in one ear? ( one side)

Or am i missing something else
 
You might try this

This could be a easier solution... and should work.
Yes the house will tend to block your signals in that direction...but let's see if you can get going this way.
The antennas you have will work, however "I think" I would make some changes in position and set-up.
My email AD is good via QRZ if you want to contact me that way
All the Best
(BJ) Gary/W9FNB
 

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I think the height and not being above the top of the roof was mentioned earlier in this thread.

Options,

Five gallon bucket, put a piece of 1 inch EMT conduit inside the bucket cut to be just a few inches higher than the top of the bucket.

Fill it with cement let it cure.

Buy. build, purchase, or barter an 10 meter and 6 meter vertical antenna.
Google is a very fine resource for how to home brew antennas. 11 meter vertical will work just re tune it for 10 meters.

Use smaller sections of EMT metal pipe as a mast pipe and mount the vertical on it, sit the EMT mast pipe into the cement bucket base, Top of the antenna should be well above the top of the roof.

Or C clamp the EMT mast pipe to the fire escape, do whatever it takes to get the vertical above the roof of the apartment.

Fire escape will make a nice ground plane of sorts.

When you are done "playing radio" ( as my XYL states) then remove the mast, take antenna apart and store it until the next time you want to play radio.

The vertical will give a good low angle of radiation for working DX, and most repeaters are vertical polarized anyway.

If the roof is all wood and shingles. You may try tossing the dipole on the roof, use car lug nuts as weights tied to the end of the dipole with non conductive rope and see how the vswr turns out laying on the roof. If you are not going to use an amplifier and vswr are good, may work for you also.

The hobby is fun, and can be frustrating at times, antennas are 99% of your station. Location and space limitations do have their downfalls but with patients and initiative you will be up and running working the locals and the dx with whatever antenna you may have up.

At least you are trying, trying is learning, and that's what the hobby is, fun in learning. Making that rare DX contact is even better on something you built yourself.

Does the apartment have metal gutters? You have a tuner, pretty decent one in fact, load that gutter up and go to talking, Use the gutter as the positive connect the center conductor of the coax to the gutter, counterpoise? That fire escape is looking good to me. Connect the ground to the fire escape, use a piece of wire to make the distance to the fire escape.

The options are limitless, think out of the box.
 
This could be a easier solution... and should work.
Yes the house will tend to block your signals in that direction...but let's see if you can get going this way.
The antennas you have will work, however "I think" I would make some changes in position and set-up.
My email AD is good via QRZ if you want to contact me that way
All the Best
(BJ) Gary/W9FNB

So your talking about making two verticle antennas for 6 and 10 out of copper pipe?

How does one solder a pl259 to a copper pipe?
What do you do for the ground side? are you saying solder or connect somehow the shiled of the coax to the fire escape and the core only to the pipe?
 
Well here is a quick technical update.


I had an extreamly brillant ham freind of mine ( a different one then previous) test this with me again

He blasted a 200 watt beam directly at me

Clear as day
S9 contact no issue and i was able to get him turning my radio all the way down to 5 watts.

Which brings me to a possible thought. The house is blocking half of te antenna and i can not hear half of the world. Because my dipole does not clear the crest of the roof i can only hear in one direction

Again on another test, he went mobile and was in a different direction then previously and i again was def as a post.

Does this sound like the antenna is not high enough and the house being so close is causing me to be deaf in one ear? ( one side)

Or am i missing something else

Following this post for a while, I have been thinking all along that the antenna is working fine for what it is, and that you were expecting too much out of it as far as being able to work local comms with it.

Yes, the antenna not being very high and also blocked to some extent by your building is going to limit what it can do. Also, there could be other obstacles/terrain between you and the stations(s) you had been trying to test it with.

You may find that when the 10 meter band (if ever) really gets going like it can for skywave propagation, you will be able to work some good DX with that thing.

But I like BJ Radionut's idea---use the fire escape to your advantage, rather than using an antenna that perhaps suffers from being too close to it.
 

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  • @ BJ radionut:
    EVAN/Crawdad :love: ...runna pile-up on 6m SSB(y) W4AXW in the air
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    One of the few times my tiny station gets heard on 6m!:D
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