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Do hams use any type of 'tracking devices" to determine where you key up?
- Thread starter Turbo T
- Start date
Might be able to do something like that with an APRS-capable radio; don't know.
FCC has such sharp directional arrays that they can triangulate and find where suspicious transmissions are coming from, though.
B
BOOTY MONSTER
Guest
with the use of APRS it can be done relatively easy, but as doc said, other than that it takes a little time and cooperation, recently there was a Ham that had left his rig turned on and .........
73
Jeff
( Credit for the story to ARRL )
73
Jeff
basicly yes they can, , by triangulation methods, and by the use of transmitter fingerprinting software from aircraft above,
so the old idea that " it wasnt me" can be proven it was in fact you ! doing the transmitting .
and yes now day they do have sofisticated computer software along with the triangulation reciving equipment in those little dodge caravans with the darked out windows , and a half a dozen antenners, looking like a dark blue porcupine
so the old idea that " it wasnt me" can be proven it was in fact you ! doing the transmitting .
and yes now day they do have sofisticated computer software along with the triangulation reciving equipment in those little dodge caravans with the darked out windows , and a half a dozen antenners, looking like a dark blue porcupine
Depends on how bad they need to find you. If they use simple triangulation and mobile platforms it can take some time especially if you are not in the immediate area that reports the signal as in long range propagation.
If you have ever been on a fox hunt or in CB speak a T-Hunt t=transmitter it is amazing simple when you are in say a 30 mile range of the transmitter to locate even with out multiple triangulation platforms and just chasing a 4 watt transmitter.
As for fingerprinting a radio any digital spectrum analyzer can do that it is matter of knowing what to look for. Each radio's output signature is unique even among two identical units right off the assembly line. As they age their unique signature gets that much more unique as compactness age or get replaced and so on.
We have Aircraft and Satalites that can easily speed the process up but retaking a satilite is expensive.
Direction finding equipment has been with us for a long time. In fact we use old DF gear in Air traffic Control Tower's to give DF steers to lost aircraft and we use triangulation using two separate VOR stations to pinpoint our location if lost.
I once had fuel tanks leaking and a cockpit fire and lost all my instruments and bad weather set in. I had declare a state of emergency and had to get a DF steer......I ended up landing under instrument conditions with no instruments.......Luckily the Military has precision approach radar that can really put the aircraft to with in a few feet of the runway. The hardest part was trusting a random voice over the radio to put you on the center line and give you reports on how many feet above the runway you are. I landed that aircraft dead stick as my fuel tanks where empty......... I needed some coffee with sugar before I ready to debrief after that flight.
I was told about White Vans and multiple antenna's. Their are some pretty cool DF finding gear you can buy. I have seen some that suction cup to the roof of you car and it has something like 8 antenna's or such and a digital box with LED in a 360 degree compus pattern. This makes life much simpler. Why? Well with one antenna you have to drive in a circle while watching you receive meter for signal strength. You have to know the exact pattern that your antenna receives and transmit's in....."Dip Meter is Nice for figuring the exact pattern out".
In my youth I did T-Hunts on CB no less. Cops did not like us doing circles in empty parking lots and such at first. Then we accidentally stumbled upon an escaped convict that had been missing for about a month. We call the police right away some of our group where firefighter's and where able to bypass the 911 slow as heck process and ahd about 14 Police cars their in a hurry. We never had a problem with law enforcement again......So those lowly CB people are not all a bunch of drunk agitators stepping on amateur trying to have a decent conversation. LOL
Oh and the FCC does come to town a couple times a year any place their is a lot of CB use and illegal amplifier use. Working in a shop that was a major repair and warranty center for all the big Amateur brand we always knew when the FCC would come to town. They would usually ask us if we had any idea where various people they where looking for lived. Often they would ask us if we knew various peoples first and last name and address based on CB handles we normally did. This sped the process up a lot. So if your repair tech knows you make minor violations of the law according to the FCC but are not a trouble maker and he tells you to mind your "P's and Q's" for the next few days listen to him he is trying to keep you out of trouble with the FCC while getting rid of the bad fish that are poisoning the pond! I have not meet a Ham yet that did not violate the rules on occasion even if minor!
If you have ever been on a fox hunt or in CB speak a T-Hunt t=transmitter it is amazing simple when you are in say a 30 mile range of the transmitter to locate even with out multiple triangulation platforms and just chasing a 4 watt transmitter.
As for fingerprinting a radio any digital spectrum analyzer can do that it is matter of knowing what to look for. Each radio's output signature is unique even among two identical units right off the assembly line. As they age their unique signature gets that much more unique as compactness age or get replaced and so on.
We have Aircraft and Satalites that can easily speed the process up but retaking a satilite is expensive.
Direction finding equipment has been with us for a long time. In fact we use old DF gear in Air traffic Control Tower's to give DF steers to lost aircraft and we use triangulation using two separate VOR stations to pinpoint our location if lost.
I once had fuel tanks leaking and a cockpit fire and lost all my instruments and bad weather set in. I had declare a state of emergency and had to get a DF steer......I ended up landing under instrument conditions with no instruments.......Luckily the Military has precision approach radar that can really put the aircraft to with in a few feet of the runway. The hardest part was trusting a random voice over the radio to put you on the center line and give you reports on how many feet above the runway you are. I landed that aircraft dead stick as my fuel tanks where empty......... I needed some coffee with sugar before I ready to debrief after that flight.
I was told about White Vans and multiple antenna's. Their are some pretty cool DF finding gear you can buy. I have seen some that suction cup to the roof of you car and it has something like 8 antenna's or such and a digital box with LED in a 360 degree compus pattern. This makes life much simpler. Why? Well with one antenna you have to drive in a circle while watching you receive meter for signal strength. You have to know the exact pattern that your antenna receives and transmit's in....."Dip Meter is Nice for figuring the exact pattern out".
In my youth I did T-Hunts on CB no less. Cops did not like us doing circles in empty parking lots and such at first. Then we accidentally stumbled upon an escaped convict that had been missing for about a month. We call the police right away some of our group where firefighter's and where able to bypass the 911 slow as heck process and ahd about 14 Police cars their in a hurry. We never had a problem with law enforcement again......So those lowly CB people are not all a bunch of drunk agitators stepping on amateur trying to have a decent conversation. LOL
Oh and the FCC does come to town a couple times a year any place their is a lot of CB use and illegal amplifier use. Working in a shop that was a major repair and warranty center for all the big Amateur brand we always knew when the FCC would come to town. They would usually ask us if we had any idea where various people they where looking for lived. Often they would ask us if we knew various peoples first and last name and address based on CB handles we normally did. This sped the process up a lot. So if your repair tech knows you make minor violations of the law according to the FCC but are not a trouble maker and he tells you to mind your "P's and Q's" for the next few days listen to him he is trying to keep you out of trouble with the FCC while getting rid of the bad fish that are poisoning the pond! I have not meet a Ham yet that did not violate the rules on occasion even if minor!
That is some funny stuff right there....Please......... you been out of the loop way to long if you think they have the resources to do this.
73
Jeff
What I meant was suppose someone gets on the radio, and hears 2 people talking and decides to be an ass over the radio...and just says something as simple as "shut the fuck up you bunch of cocksuckers" and says nothing more. Sure while he's keyed up you can probably pin point him if you really wanted to. But what happens once he unkeys the radio and doesn't transmit for....say a week? Is there any way you can still find said individual even after he's finished talking and doesn't key up anymore for a while?
That's why I wasn't sure if there's computer equipment of some sort (or something similar) that not only picks up a signal but can also trace back (geographically) where it came from, after the fact, long after said individual unkeyed the radio?
I do not think so, once the signal is shut off, there is nothing to look for...
A less than 15 second transmission is going to be almost impossible to trace.
73
Jeff
I should think that there is a lot of government df surveillance in use. If u are intrested read the code book by simon singh. It details much of the allied df system in use in world war 2. I dare say it has improved greatly since then since i hear there are by amateur astronomer count more than 13000 satellites in orbit and half that with known function it leaves a lot of room for spy satellites in speculation. Since it only takes ten watts to contact a bird it wouldn't be hard to imagine a network of them logging transmission strengths like the gps system. Also read up on project echelon on wikipedia. I think i saw an article on wired.com ages ago that was well researched. But that said I dont think the government cares whether people curse at each other over radio or not.
The priority of CB/Ham radio enforcement is so far down the list it is beyond thinking about and the resources are simply not there to allow them to send field agents driving around to look for rouge CB/Ham operators.
Look at Glenn A. Baxter, K1MAN, of Belgrade Lakes, Maine.
Listen to many many HF frequency's that sound like romper room at night.
Would you like a recent example?
Here is a REAL enforcement action as recent as last year regarding a CB operator, Ira Jones, in Merced,ca.
This individual had ( has) been causing problems for over a year before they cut loose a couple of guys to deal with the problem, finally in march of 2010 they seemed to do something.
First some background:
BACKGROUND
2. On March 19, 2010, agents from the Enforcement Bureau's San Francisco
Office ("San Francisco Office") responded to a complaint regarding
radio frequency interference within the radio communication system
equipment of the Merced County Fire Department. The agents observed
that transmissions on CB radio station frequency 27.165 MHz appeared
to match the audio distortion received on frequency 154.4 MHz within
the Merced County Fire Department's audio receiver and speaker system
in what appeared to be audio rectification interference within the
department's receiver and speaker system. The agents then monitored
the radio transmissions on frequency 27.165 MHz and used radio
direction finding techniques to locate the source of the signal
associated with the interference to a CB radio station operating from
Jones's residence in Merced, California.
3. On March 26, 2010, agents from the San Francisco Office again
monitored frequency 27.165 MHz and used radio direction finding
techniques to locate the source of the signal creating the audio
rectification interference to a CB radio station operating from
Jones's residence in Merced, California. Later the same day, the
agents approached Jones's residence, knocked on his door, identified
themselves as agents of the FCC and presented their official badges
and credentials. The individual identified himself as Jones. The
agents told Jones about the radio frequency interference complaint
from the nearby Merced County Fire Department and asked him if he was
the owner or operator of the CB radio station. Jones acknowledged that
he was the operator of the CB radio station but denied causing any
interference to the Merced County Fire Department. The agents then
requested that they be allowed to inspect the CB radio station to
determine the cause of the interference. Jones denied the agents'
request to inspect the CB radio station. The agents warned Jones that
refusing to allow an inspection of a CB radio station is a violation
of section 95.426(a) of the Rules and section 303
of the Act,
explaining that these rules require CB operators to make their
stations available to authorized FCC representatives for inspection.
Jones again denied the request and asserted that the FCC must have a
search warrant to inspect his CB station. The agents advised Jones
that he was required to take necessary precautions to avoid causing
radio interference by operating at power levels that do not exceed
legal limits and by refraining from using a radio frequency power
amplifier.
4. Prior to leaving the premises, the agents issued an on-scene "Notice
of Unlicensed Operation" ("First Notice") to Jones. The First Notice
expressly warned that Jones's refusal to allow inspection of his radio
equipment violated section 303 of the Act and included the full
text of section 303. Jones refused to accept a copy of the First
Notice and the agents left the document on a chair near the front door
of the house. The agents then left the premises, but continued to
monitor 27.165 MHz and heard Jones describe the agents' attempted
inspection. Later on March 26, 2010, the agents again monitored
frequency 27.165 MHz and noted that Jones was operating his CB radio
station without causing interference to the Merced County Fire
Department radio communication equipment. Subsequently, the Merced
County Fire Department reported that the interference ceased.
5. On August 25, 2010, the San Francisco Office received another
complaint from the Merced County Fire Department that the interference
to its radio communication equipment had resumed over the prior two
weeks and appeared to again be caused by a CB radio station operated
by Jones. According to the complainant, the interference lasted from
10 minutes to 45 minutes at a time and Jones's CB radio station could
be clearly heard on the radio communication equipment at the Merced
County fire station during these times.
6. On August 27, 2010, agents from the San Francisco Office again
monitored frequency 27.165 MHz and used radio direction finding
techniques to locate the source of the interfering signal to a CB
radio station operating from Jones's residence in Merced, California.
Later the same day, the agents, along with two Merced City police
officers, approached Jones at his front yard, identified themselves as
agents of the FCC and presented their official badges and credentials.
The two Merced City police officers identified the man as Jones. The
agents told Jones about the radio frequency interference complaint and
requested that they be allowed to inspect the CB radio station to
determine the cause of the interference. Jones denied the request.
Jones again admitted that he was the owner and operator of the CB
radio station, but stated that he was not the owner of the house and
that he had to refuse the inspection. Jones understood that refusal to
allow an inspection could result in a $7,000 forfeiture assessment.
After further conversation with the agents and the police officers,
Jones subsequently admitted to being the owner of the house. The
agents again requested that they be allowed to inspect the CB radio
station and reiterated that Jones's refusal to allow an inspection of
a CB radio station is a violation of section 95.426(a) of the Rules
and section 303 of the Act and is subject to a forfeiture. Jones
again denied the request to inspect his CB station. The agents then
gave Jones an oral warning and issued a second on-scene "Notice of
Unlicensed Operation" ("Second Notice") to Jones. The Second Notice
expressly warned that Jones's refusal to allow inspection of his radio
equipment violated section 303 of the Act and included the full
text of section 303. Jones refused to accept a copy of the Second
Notice and the agents left the document on a wooden yard border. The
agents then left the premises.
7. On September 1, 2010, the San Francisco Office received another
complaint from the Merced County Fire Department stating that Jones
had resumed CB radio station operation at approximately 5:30 p.m., and
interference within the Merced County Fire Department radio
communication system equipment had also resumed.
=========================================================
In March of 2011, The FCC issued a NAL to Ira Jones ( one year after enforcement started, (almost 2 years after the first complaint from the fire department) in the Amount of $7000.00.
They have Yet to collect, nor have they inspected his station, nor have they removed him or his equipment from the Air.
I live Near Merced, and Mr Jones ( CB Handle Falcon) is still on the air, almost every day with a local signal of 20 over S-9, It is easy to find him on 27.165 as you drive through Merced.
He is very proud of the fact that he told the "Fed`s To F Off" when they wanted to inspect his station and lets everyone in the local community know that they have not, and will not remove him from the air.
Granted, given enough time this "might" get settled, But a friend that is involved with the fire department has told me that they plan up-grade there radio equipment at the station at cost to the city to resolve the issue.
Now, if this is the level of enforcement that is going on over A Known rouge operator, that the FCC has documented proof of interference to Emergency Services ( Fire and Rescue in the City of Merced) whats makes anyone think that they will use resources to go hunt down random guys that are just running 100 watts or so on 27 MHz or someone acting like a drunken ass on the air.
It is about money, and the government is strapped for cash....the most pressing thing on the FCC`s mind is selling spectrum to entity's for the all mighty dollar.
CB and Ham radio has become a burden to the FCC, that they do not have time for.
Why do you think the amateur community has been turned over to "self policing" ?
In the example that I posted early in this thread, it was the Amateur OO`s that moved to track down the interference, and then requested help from the FCC....
Some one telling someone else to STFU is the last thing they want to know about.......
And I am not beating up on you Turbo T, I am just pointing out what things have come to as far as enforcement.
73
Jeff
Look at Glenn A. Baxter, K1MAN, of Belgrade Lakes, Maine.
Listen to many many HF frequency's that sound like romper room at night.
Would you like a recent example?
Here is a REAL enforcement action as recent as last year regarding a CB operator, Ira Jones, in Merced,ca.
This individual had ( has) been causing problems for over a year before they cut loose a couple of guys to deal with the problem, finally in march of 2010 they seemed to do something.
First some background:
BACKGROUND
2. On March 19, 2010, agents from the Enforcement Bureau's San Francisco
Office ("San Francisco Office") responded to a complaint regarding
radio frequency interference within the radio communication system
equipment of the Merced County Fire Department. The agents observed
that transmissions on CB radio station frequency 27.165 MHz appeared
to match the audio distortion received on frequency 154.4 MHz within
the Merced County Fire Department's audio receiver and speaker system
in what appeared to be audio rectification interference within the
department's receiver and speaker system. The agents then monitored
the radio transmissions on frequency 27.165 MHz and used radio
direction finding techniques to locate the source of the signal
associated with the interference to a CB radio station operating from
Jones's residence in Merced, California.
3. On March 26, 2010, agents from the San Francisco Office again
monitored frequency 27.165 MHz and used radio direction finding
techniques to locate the source of the signal creating the audio
rectification interference to a CB radio station operating from
Jones's residence in Merced, California. Later the same day, the
agents approached Jones's residence, knocked on his door, identified
themselves as agents of the FCC and presented their official badges
and credentials. The individual identified himself as Jones. The
agents told Jones about the radio frequency interference complaint
from the nearby Merced County Fire Department and asked him if he was
the owner or operator of the CB radio station. Jones acknowledged that
he was the operator of the CB radio station but denied causing any
interference to the Merced County Fire Department. The agents then
requested that they be allowed to inspect the CB radio station to
determine the cause of the interference. Jones denied the agents'
request to inspect the CB radio station. The agents warned Jones that
refusing to allow an inspection of a CB radio station is a violation
of section 95.426(a) of the Rules and section 303
of the Act,explaining that these rules require CB operators to make their
stations available to authorized FCC representatives for inspection.
Jones again denied the request and asserted that the FCC must have a
search warrant to inspect his CB station. The agents advised Jones
that he was required to take necessary precautions to avoid causing
radio interference by operating at power levels that do not exceed
legal limits and by refraining from using a radio frequency power
amplifier.
4. Prior to leaving the premises, the agents issued an on-scene "Notice
of Unlicensed Operation" ("First Notice") to Jones. The First Notice
expressly warned that Jones's refusal to allow inspection of his radio
equipment violated section 303
of the Act and included the fulltext of section 303
. Jones refused to accept a copy of the FirstNotice and the agents left the document on a chair near the front door
of the house. The agents then left the premises, but continued to
monitor 27.165 MHz and heard Jones describe the agents' attempted
inspection. Later on March 26, 2010, the agents again monitored
frequency 27.165 MHz and noted that Jones was operating his CB radio
station without causing interference to the Merced County Fire
Department radio communication equipment. Subsequently, the Merced
County Fire Department reported that the interference ceased.
5. On August 25, 2010, the San Francisco Office received another
complaint from the Merced County Fire Department that the interference
to its radio communication equipment had resumed over the prior two
weeks and appeared to again be caused by a CB radio station operated
by Jones. According to the complainant, the interference lasted from
10 minutes to 45 minutes at a time and Jones's CB radio station could
be clearly heard on the radio communication equipment at the Merced
County fire station during these times.
6. On August 27, 2010, agents from the San Francisco Office again
monitored frequency 27.165 MHz and used radio direction finding
techniques to locate the source of the interfering signal to a CB
radio station operating from Jones's residence in Merced, California.
Later the same day, the agents, along with two Merced City police
officers, approached Jones at his front yard, identified themselves as
agents of the FCC and presented their official badges and credentials.
The two Merced City police officers identified the man as Jones. The
agents told Jones about the radio frequency interference complaint and
requested that they be allowed to inspect the CB radio station to
determine the cause of the interference. Jones denied the request.
Jones again admitted that he was the owner and operator of the CB
radio station, but stated that he was not the owner of the house and
that he had to refuse the inspection. Jones understood that refusal to
allow an inspection could result in a $7,000 forfeiture assessment.
After further conversation with the agents and the police officers,
Jones subsequently admitted to being the owner of the house. The
agents again requested that they be allowed to inspect the CB radio
station and reiterated that Jones's refusal to allow an inspection of
a CB radio station is a violation of section 95.426(a) of the Rules
and section 303
of the Act and is subject to a forfeiture. Jonesagain denied the request to inspect his CB station. The agents then
gave Jones an oral warning and issued a second on-scene "Notice of
Unlicensed Operation" ("Second Notice") to Jones. The Second Notice
expressly warned that Jones's refusal to allow inspection of his radio
equipment violated section 303
of the Act and included the fulltext of section 303
. Jones refused to accept a copy of the SecondNotice and the agents left the document on a wooden yard border. The
agents then left the premises.
7. On September 1, 2010, the San Francisco Office received another
complaint from the Merced County Fire Department stating that Jones
had resumed CB radio station operation at approximately 5:30 p.m., and
interference within the Merced County Fire Department radio
communication system equipment had also resumed.
=========================================================
In March of 2011, The FCC issued a NAL to Ira Jones ( one year after enforcement started, (almost 2 years after the first complaint from the fire department) in the Amount of $7000.00.
They have Yet to collect, nor have they inspected his station, nor have they removed him or his equipment from the Air.
I live Near Merced, and Mr Jones ( CB Handle Falcon) is still on the air, almost every day with a local signal of 20 over S-9, It is easy to find him on 27.165 as you drive through Merced.
He is very proud of the fact that he told the "Fed`s To F Off" when they wanted to inspect his station and lets everyone in the local community know that they have not, and will not remove him from the air.
Granted, given enough time this "might" get settled, But a friend that is involved with the fire department has told me that they plan up-grade there radio equipment at the station at cost to the city to resolve the issue.
Now, if this is the level of enforcement that is going on over A Known rouge operator, that the FCC has documented proof of interference to Emergency Services ( Fire and Rescue in the City of Merced) whats makes anyone think that they will use resources to go hunt down random guys that are just running 100 watts or so on 27 MHz or someone acting like a drunken ass on the air.
It is about money, and the government is strapped for cash....the most pressing thing on the FCC`s mind is selling spectrum to entity's for the all mighty dollar.
CB and Ham radio has become a burden to the FCC, that they do not have time for.
Why do you think the amateur community has been turned over to "self policing" ?
In the example that I posted early in this thread, it was the Amateur OO`s that moved to track down the interference, and then requested help from the FCC....
Some one telling someone else to STFU is the last thing they want to know about.......
And I am not beating up on you Turbo T, I am just pointing out what things have come to as far as enforcement.
73
Jeff
Wow, I'm really surprised the FCC has not made further progress with this. And yet the fire dept is just going to upgrade to alleviate the problem? LOL. Well maybe if they want to up Mr. Jones' property taxes by a large margin to cover the costs but you know that will not happen.
I'm even more surprised no one has decided to place a pin in Mr. Jones' coax in the middle of the night, unless he has the whole premises guarded by electrified barbed wire fences and aggressive canines.
There were several locals that attempted to....shall we say, take matters into there own hands.
They suddenly found themselves slapped with restraining orders, and threats of being prosecuted under "hate crime" laws.
Mr Jones is of African American Heritage, and is very adept at playing that to his advantage.
He doesn't work, he has all day to rant and rave on the radio, he loves to stir hate a discontent.
He loves to engage people on the radio in conversations that turn racial at his prodding, and then conversations get recorded and sent to the local police department....after a bit of creative editing.......claiming that the local "rednecks" want to kill him.
This has been going on for several years, he is well know for his antics in the area.
This has wasted untold amounts of money on wasted time for local law enforcement.
73
Jeff
Wow...nothing I love more than idiots who pull the race card. And they wonder why we can't put racism to bed once and for all.
Unless Mr. Jones also has security cameras all around his coax and antenna/tower....still though I can't believe the FCC has just let this clown keep on going. I suppose the local PD can't apprehend him for knowingly interfering with emergency frequencies? Heck didn't the cops arrest that one clown, Bamm Bamm out in OKC for a similar offense?
