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Dual Predator 10k's

Worth it? I guess it just depends on 'where' that 1/2 'S' unit comes in. If it's a difference of being heard and not being heard, then I guess so. If it's a difference of being heard then being heard better? Not me, I'm too cheap.
- 'Doc
 
Yo,

Where can I get 75 ohm coax, and how long does it need to be to be an electrical 1/4 wave + the neutral 1/2 wave in order to make it right. Also, where can I get the T connector at? I'm going to give this some testing now.. doubling power now would require me to put a 16 pill in and necessary charging system. So now, it appears to be cost efficient.. lol.

I might/might not mount it elsewhere in order to get best results.

Peace,
Josh
 
Josh,
The most common answer to everything except the length part is Radio Shack. If going to the 'Shack' is a problem for you, just about any electronics supply house/company also sells coax and connectors.
Length. To find the length of an electrical 1/4 wave cable you need to know what the velocity factor (VF) of the cable is. It's usually something on the order of 66% for a 'solid' dielectric (center insulation) cable, about 80% for foam types. The 'magic' number to use finding an e;ectrical 1/4 wave length of coax is "246". So, 246 x VF = the real 'magic' number. Divide the 'magic' number by the frequency you want the thing to be 'magic' at. Channel 19 is 27.185 Mhz, use that. Now you have the overall length of an electrical 1/4 wave length of your coax. While this length is important, it's certainly not worth the trouble of using a micrometer to measure, (or, the yardstick might be divided into inches, but don't worry about the 1/1000 of an inch marks, okay?). Put the required connectors on the coax. Connect to all the approriate thingys and you're done.
Sound simple? It is. Gotta know the 'magic' numbers and be reasonably careful with measuring though. There are a couple of other 'buts' that you ought to be aware of (Aww @#$%... I knew there'd be a catch!). The velocity factor of coax isn't an absolute, carved in stone fact. It can vary, even on the same spool of cable (nuthin's perfect). So, the electricl length may be 'off' a little. Not a biggy so get used to it. All this 'stuff' to make two antennas work as one is only an approximation, don't expect a 1.1:1 SWR (anything less than about 1.5:1 is just fine). If you happen to get a 1.1:1... go to church, Someone is on your side! "What'cha get ain't never what you expected.", another one of those 'things' you learn about in the 'school of hard nocks'. Do the 'church' thingy if it turns out better than you were afraid it would.
Good luck. And the 'biggy', have fun.
- 'Doc
 
I have nemal 213u coax, and I believe the velocity factor is was .67, but I cannot recall.. I will double check.

So at 27.115 my magic# is about 6 ft.

So I should run slightly over 6 feet from the t to my 1st predator, and 18 feet to the back one (6 ft + neutral 12 ft)? I have 9 feet before the t, going to my 8 pill.

I should get each antenna to 1.1 with its own length of coax perfectly set, before I put the t on and connect the feedline to the amplifier.. then test again and pray for the lowest I can.

I've heard 6 feet for the distance of the antenna's apart too, should I try to get as close as 6 feet as possible? If it's 6 1/2 feet.. or 7 feet is it going to give me trouble?

Also.. which direction will I be the strongest towards.. towards my front? How much rejection will I have to the sides/rear.. enough to still talk to my local friends 5-10 miles away.

Sorry for all the questions, but blowing up a very expensive box playing around with this stuff doesn't sit right with me.. so I want to make sure I get everything down to a science.

http://cgi.ebay.com/UHF-T-TYPE-COAX...ryZ48704QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Also.. that should be what I need.. from amp to the top, and both antenna's in the sides?

Thanks again,
Josh
 
Josh,
First, you are not going to be able to get each antenna and feed line to a 1.1:1 match, can't happen, and you really don't want it to anyway. What's happening is that each antenna is providing an input impedance, which is then added together (not simple addition, by the way) to provide a resulting impedance of close to 50 ohms at the 'T' where the feed line to the radio connects. That 'close to 50 ohms' impedance when connected to the 50 ohm feed line to the radio should yield a usable impedance value near the 50 ohms of the radio, or amplifier's output impedance. That makes the radio/amplifier 'see' an impedance that it can live with (less than 1.5:1, sort of). All this assumes that each antenna (usually a 1/4 wave which is usually something around 30-35 ohms input impedance) plus feedline impedance will yield soemthing around 100 ohms (ideally, just not likely). When these two impedances are paralleled at the 'T' you get a resulting impedance of about 50 ohms (ideally, also not likely). That resulting 50 ohms impedance when connected to the feedline going to the radio/amplifier (50 ohm) will give the radio/amplifier a 50 ohm load, which what you want. You can see that there are a lot of "depends" things (variables) in that, and if most of them are close to what you hope they are then things work out okay. If not, then the trick is to isolate the variable that's causing problems and 'fix'/change it.
Antenna seperation distance. Almost any distance will work to some degree. 'Best' (easiest to to use) distance is close to a 1/4 wave, or about 9 feet. That's usually the easiest to get 'practical' distance between antennas that yields the most directionality. Don't confuse the 6 foot 'electrical' 1/4 wave with this seperation 1/4 wave, they are not the same thing (and I know that's confusing, but it's dealing with signal travel in air instead of metal. Still confusing but only solution to that is a course in electronics theory. Not a bad idea but I sure as @#$% ain't the one to teach it, and this ain't the place for it - lol).
Radiation patterns. The typical phased antennas signal is greatest perpendicular to the plane of the antennas, or broadside to the two antennas. Antennas mounted fore and aft? Max signal off to ~both~ sides. Antennas mounted one on each side, max signal fore and aft. No matter which way you mount them you'll only be pointed wrong half the time, maybe - lol. Bidirectional. That 'direction' can be changed by varying the phase between antennas, which was what the thingy from 'Hygain'(?) did. It isn't quite as simple as the typical dual antenna set up though. Rejection? No idea, never measured it. It'll be noticable, so I'd guess around at least 3db or more, sort of.
The 'T' connector you posted should work just fine. So would most that you could find at Radio Shack (I know, dirty work). 'Amphenol' conncetors are best, others are too, but it's a sure thing with 'Amphenol'. [Except for the '90 degree' turn connectors which are ALL the pits, deals with how they are made, ain't getting into that.]
- 'Doc

PS - Hardest part about trying to explain this stuff is trying to guess what you know/don't know already, and how much 'stuff' your willing to put up with in getting to the finish line. Either the teller or the listener always seems a bit 'dull'. Isn't intended that way, but just how it works out. Sorry 'bout that...
Best advice I can give is to find one of the ham 'Handbooks'. After getting over the normal intimidation of the thing, it's quite informative, has examples of most of this stuff, and gives a pretty good explanation of the 'why' of it. Sound like I'm trying to get out of teaching something? HELL YES! I'm a lousy teacher.
 
Mole',
I wonder if the "no particular coax lengths" apply to all three connections or just the one to the radio? If it applies to all three connections, then I wonder how it compensates for differing lengths to the two antennas and still keeps them at some set phase? Or maybe the phasing changes! But I wonder how it does and how you know? I don't know very much about this device, as you can tell. Gonna try one? ;)
- 'Doc
 
I'm not gonna try one...too much hassle for me. But I've seen them around for a while. I really don't know how they work, but I might have to get one (if they're not too expensive) and open it up and figure out the circuit, if I can.
 
I run a dual antenna system with 2 antennas and the gain can be really worth it. On my pickup with the hot antenna centered on the roof it made a real noticeable diff. while on my burb with the hot mounted all the way to the rear it made only a small difference. Really for the money it can be the by far the most practical way make a real gain to your system. If your already running an 8 pill to make a similar difference to the hot cold set up you would have to step up to a 16. once you buy one you then need at least a pair 200 amp alts a 4 pill driver some batts maybe new coax. Even on the cheap your looking at around 2grand$$. A reflector might set you back 100$ plus the cost of a mount even if you paid to have one made it would still be 10x's cheaper with nearly the same gain. With the extra cash you could go buy a set of 8volts, a externally regulated alt and regulator and really wake that a pill up if it is a comp box that is.
 
"I run a dual antenna system with 2 antennas........"

you're not using dual antennas. what you're using is
a parasitically energized 2 element array. it's not the
same thing as a phased antenna system where both
antennas are hot.

looking at some of distortions posts i can already see
that this is creating confusion.

distortion,

model the system using the feedline types necessary
to handle the power of the box and do your initial testing
at lower power levels until everything looks good before
you apply the heat.

the cophase box is a joke. phase angle delay can't
be introduced into a system (much less controlled)
unless feedline length is utilized or adjustable lumped
circuit values are made available to the operator. just
how much feedline do you think you can stuff into that
box? 2 - 30 mhz.? yeah, right. save the $50.00 and
quit believing everything you see. this box is just as big
a joke as the noise eliminator unit that was discussed
some time back.

1/4 wave separation in a phased array is not mandatory
and cannot be achieved for obvious reasons if the array
is to be directional to the front and the rear of the vehicle.
at spacings between 1/8 and 1/4 wl in addition to the
somewhat rectangular geometry of the vehicle good to
excellent results can still be obtained. the 1/4 wave spacing
is given when the array is operated over a ground mass
that extends beyond the array in all directions for at least
a full 1/4 wl at the lowest operating frequency. no vehicle
on the road that i know of fits this description.
 
I don't think that co-phase set up would work nearly as well as the hot cold ststem just my 2 cents.
 
So which one is easier to configure properly? Also I hear the cophased setup can cause problems when keying next to other large mobiles say 3-4k and up is this true in your experiance?
 

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