HF antennas

[BenMara]

Now that i know were im going with the V/Uhf antenna situation lets talk HF antennas.
Hf equipment: Kenwood TS-480, and Palstar AT4K tuner

I currently have a Alpha Delta DX-80 in a inverted V, legs are point East to West (only trees i can run lines to). I also use a Palstar AT4K antenna tuner where i want to go. Recently i havent been to satisfied for TX/RX of this antenna, im limited to 50watt max (TS-480), anything above that will tripp the house alarm system (i have 21ft of coax rolled into a choke below the feed point). Ive thought about adding wires to the DX-80, but cant seem to make time to cut wire and tune them for the fan dipole.

Ive been doing research into verticals, but needed ground radials busted that idea.

Ive been looking at the end fed antennas lately,

The only grounding i could do for antennas is a ground rod into the ground, but doubt that would work for anything other then lighting arrestor.

I need some Direction
Please

Tkx
Ben

 

[wavrider]

Fan dipole with a 1:1 current balun at the feed point, works great
[


QUOTE=BenMara;427253]Now that i know were im going with the V/Uhf antenna situation lets talk HF antennas.
Hf equipment: Kenwood TS-480, and Palstar AT4K tuner

I currently have a Alpha Delta DX-80 in a inverted V, legs are point East to West (only trees i can run lines to). I also use a Palstar AT4K antenna tuner where i want to go. Recently i havent been to satisfied for TX/RX of this antenna, im limited to 50watt max (TS-480), anything above that will tripp the house alarm system (i have 21ft of coax rolled into a choke below the feed point). Ive thought about adding wires to the DX-80, but cant seem to make time to cut wire and tune them for the fan dipole.

Ive been doing research into verticals, but needed ground radials busted that idea.

Ive been looking at the end fed antennas lately,

The only grounding i could do for antennas is a ground rod into the ground, but doubt that would work for anything other then lighting arrestor.

I need some Direction
Please

Tkx
Ben[/QUOTE]

 

[WA8ZYT]

What wavrider said. I cannot understand the obsession with putting up crap antennas, and then trying to get them to work by using a tuner.
Yeah, the antenna looks "good" to the radio, giving the operator a false sense of security, but that does not mean the antenna is an efficient radiator.

Nothing works better than a resonant antenna. Period.

 

[Mudfoot]

Some guys have no choice. Kinda hard working low bands efficiently when you own a postage stamp lot.

Small lot=crap antenna=need tuner.

 

[binrat]

I've been using a DXCC dipole with success, only downfall is the usable bandwith on 80 metres

 

[BenMara]

well alot of the RFI has been deduced to the proximity of the antenna to the house. So im going to make provisions to move the dipole farther and higher away from the house. One of the local hams said he had some wire left over from when he last made some dipoles. So looks like im going to make a fan dipole, IMHO would be the cheapest and easiest, at my current situation.

What do yall think?

 

[W5LZ]

I think a 'fan dipole' should work for you. You're right, they aren't all that difficult to make. Probably the most difficult part of it will be to find the supports to hold it up in the air.
I don't think I'd be too worried about making any HF antenna 'perfect' to start with. Sure, you want it to be well made and to last a while. Resonant for the part of a particular band(s) you'll be using and at least close with the impedance matching. High enough so you don't 'clothes-line' yourself on it. And remember the @#$ coax is there when you cut the grass. After that, it's more a matter of getting a taste of which bands you want to be on etc. That can certainly change after you get a 'feel' for things. No body sticks with the same antenna for ever and ever.
Have fun.
- 'Doc

 

[BJ radionut]

Damn: I guess I am going to have to rethink my Entire HF Antenna system...

I have presently Zero Antennas below 28mc which are neither resonant nor feed with the "Almighty it won't work unless it's coax feed"....And I'm using (2) of those worthless Radio Fooling Tuners!
Guess I must not have a signal....{Cry_river}

Sorry: WAVRIDER/WD40/EDUKATOR/ROBB/HIGHLAND DAVE....ETC...
plus
Sorry to All the rest of the fine Club members and WWRF forum members I have worked many times and some on multiple bands....
You guys must really have some Great Ears....my "crappy" tuner feed, non-resonant antennas just don't get out!...damn the luck:blush:
I guess I'll have to not send cards out to the fellows on 75 meters this morning(under stormy conditions) when I worked:
NW Coast of Washington(60m N of Seattle) plus,
A Nice Op in NC Mountains(camping) with 100 watts and clothsline height antenna...
Plus Several Op's all over the state of Ohio...
Dang it...I thought I worked those guys...
Must have been the "Meds"
All the Best
Gary

 

[BJ radionut]

Ben: Couple thoughts from reading your posts so far...
The Alpha antenna and feeding it with coax and a large coil choke will really only give you good service on 80m...The 75m General section unless you have trimmed it down it's way to long...most likely by 6 or 7 feet each side.
The 75m phone section for General middle of the band is 3.9 Mhz...this antenna if not changed since purchased is tuned for 3.5Mhz, bottom of the CW Extra section...So that's first thing

#2: If your using the AT4K to "pull" the antenna into range(by the way Great Tuner) and your tuner is not grounded properly...You may experience some issues.
You need a good station ground for that tuner...ex 8ft ground rod sunk as close to your station as practical...( my first G rod is about 6 foot from shack)...

You will most likely not have the success your looking for using this antenna on other bands without the "Fan" elements...

You can make it work All Bands as cut using Twinlead or ladder line instead of coax...
Again you need a good ground for your tuner and radio with this method also...
Just a few quick thoughts
We are all here to help
All the Best
Gary

 

[BenMara]

80m dipole is resonate right in the middle of band, i use the tuner else where. I can get it to tune from 40m - 12m, cant seem to get it to tune on 10m tho. The most i do is PSK31 on 40m -12m, 10watts max. Now i have 250ft of wire here, just need to cut it up, found a cutting board to attach the wire to.

Do i need a balun where i switch from coax to ladder line?

i have a Gnd rod below the window that my coax feed out of, but the antenna is on the back side of house.

I appreciate this help. I ventured to become a ham with out a elmer, now a days i have too many questions and no one to answer them.

Thank You
Ben

 

[mr_fx]

I am actually running 2 fan dipoles and a fan ground mount

40-20-10

40m broadsides N and S and is a flat topped dipole

whilst 20 and 10 are inverted V's with slightly different rotations of South East



17-15-12-6

15 and 6 are north and south with a EVER so slight inverted V

17 and 12 are east west and are inverted V



The Ground mount is 160 and 80

160 is an inverted L

80 is an nearly perfect vertical



In my experience these antennas are SIMPLE to tune so long as they are not all pointed the exact same way and they are separated a bit at the ends... In fact my 17/15/12/6 required NO tuning on the 17/15/6 bands and only 2 attempts for tuning on the 12m band, I saw NO differences on the other bands after tuning 12m...

 

[BJ radionut]

FX: Glad you got involved on this...Your very resent experience should be helpful to Ben as he goes forward.

Ben: Questions
How far from your ground rod to your tuner and rig?
What size wire did you use, and how is it connected at rod and rigs?

Cutting Board? are you using this for to make insulators? How do you plan to use this item?

What type and size of wire do you have to make your "Fan" elements?
Do you have a good Soldering gun or propane torch to make your connections?

OK enough for now
All the Best
Gary

 

[W5LZ]

In no particular order...

There's a difference between an RF ground and a safety ground. 'Balanced' antennas, such as a dipole, don't need an RF ground. Neither do some vertical antennas, but that depends on how they are made/positioned. That 'ground plane' is the RF ground no matter if it's in the ground or raised. It seldom hurts to have a safety ground, but they are not necessarily connected to the antenna it's self.
Are baluns necessary for all antennas? No, only when the antenna is balanced and the feed line isn't. If you use parallel feed line with a balanced antenna then a balun isn't necessary since there's no 'imbalance'. If you change from a balanced feed line to an unbalanced feed line then a balun could certainly be used.
Are 'tuners' always a bad idea? No. They can be a very good idea if used properly. All a 'tuner' does is change impedances from one 'size' to another 'size'. Just like a transformer changes AC from one 'size' to another 'size', a tuner is just an impedance transformer.
SWR (impedance mismatches) says absolutely nothing about how well an antenna acts as an antenna (radiates well). It only tells you about how well the transference of power between the radio and the antenna is done. If you have a 'perfect' SWR it certainly does not mean the antenna system is working well.
There's no 'magic' height for any antenna. There are a number of characteristics that are affected by antenna height, some benefit some aren't affected much. In general, more height is better than less height. That can be carried to extremes just like anything else can be.
The 'best' that you can do is determined by the resources you have to work with. There can be a 'perfect' antenna for your particular location/situation, but that 'perfect' antenna system may be the worst possible in another location/situation. Sorry, there ain't no "one size fits all" antennas for all occasions.
Wanna try something different that may be better? Do it! Just remember what you had so that you can change back if it ain't better, you know?
The only really good antenna is the one you had before the last one, and the next one!
Have fun.
- 'Doc

 

[dksac2]

Have you thought about a "GAP" brand Challenger vertical. It only requires four 25' ground verticals, it does not work better with more than 4 and sometimes 25' is too long on the verticals. The verticals are just for the 40 meter band.

I just bought one and hope to plant it next week. It has got great reviews on EHAM. It's a vertical dipole, 2 meters to 80 meters with 180 Mhz bandwidth on 80 meters, the other bands have more bandwidth.
It's about 32 feet tall, weighs 25 pounds and only needs 4 guy wires or you can use cement to put the included tube in the ground and they say it's good for 60 MPH without guy wires. Sounds like you would not get that kind of wind in your yard, but who knows. It's pretty reasonable in price and goes right into the tube in the ground, it does not require a pole to raise it higher.

The radials can be placed to fit as you need them, but should be somewhat streight. It was easy to assemble, pretty good instructions. Most all of the reviews said less than 2 to 1 on all bands.

Just a thought. It should work well in a small yard. Gap also makes a smaller one that in reviews I have read, it even works well close to walls ect.

Check them out, they are supposed to have a pretty low radiation angle, so you may still want to keep your horizontal dipole for closer contacts.

My Best, John

 

[mr_fx]

Some guys have no choice. Kinda hard working low bands efficiently when you own a postage stamp lot.

Small lot=crap antenna=need tuner.

bull crap sir, tell that to my base of the tree mounted 160 inverted L and 80 meter vertical on a common feedpoint... works well