How are Sylvania/Phillips/RCA/ECG/NTE/CTC bipolar rf transistors compared to Motorolla/Toshiba/ST?

[Onelasttime]

So like the title is asking. Are these alternatives ok, junk, acceptable? I just do not have enough experience. I have some but have never actually used them.

I know the basics about how various parts are made but only enough to know the very basics. How hard or easy is it or was it for a company like RCA or Phillips to make an acceptable substitute for another companies transistor design.

I ask because since times have changed amps that would have been tossed in the trash in the past are now repaired. So a lot of things like home brew amps, Deer Hunter, Palomar, Gray, Shooting Star etc.....Heck Palomar has used more brands and types of transistors in their amps than probably the rest of the industry combined!

I know in Europe the higher voltage BLF bipolars that where made in Europe where popular for a long time so I have to think they maid a good product but I do not know that they made a good product?

So just looking for some historical input from those that have used them either on purpose for a build or used them for repairs.

 

[Onelasttime]

I know I forgot a lot of companies. I just remembered TRW back when it was an American company.

 

[nomadradio]

So here is the difference between a reseller and a manufacturer. The manufacturer of a part will be in competition with other manufacturers. In the case of transistors and diodes, theirs parts are engineered to do a particular job in a particular kind of circuit better than their competitors. Back in the day NEC, Fujitsu, Mitsubishi, Matsushita(Panasonic), Sony, Sanyo and others competed for their parts to be designed into your TV, VCR, stereo and so on. They would publish complete specifications to encourage designers to specify their product.

Back in the day, there was a japanese transistor substitution book that listed equivalent parts across all the manufacturers.

But this created a nightmare for anyone trying to market replacement parts. Nobody wanted to stock six part numbers that all were meant to do the same job.

Enter the "universal" replacement marketers. They didn't make any of the parts they marketed, only bought them with the original number on them, scraped it off and printed their own number . A cross-reference guide that looked like a phone book would list all manner of original part numbers, and list a substitute that had specs that were "close enough". Their substitute would be packed into a preprinted plastic bag. The ECG, TCG, Motorola HEP, RCA "SK", Workman WEP, and many other outfits sold replacement semiconductors this way.

Now that the reality of the "replacement" parts market is shrinking by the week, most of the "universal" cross-reference parts you find out there are old stock. NTE is still in business, pretty sure. The "SK" parts business got sold to Thompson Consumer Electronics decades ago. They sold the same product line with the "TCE" prefix a while before they got tired of a shrinking market.

The name printed on a part or its package may or may not tell you anything about who made it.

A particular chip that was made by only one source would get listed, remarked and sold this way until they ran out, and that would be the end of it. NTE used to list a sub for every CB PLL chip. Won't find them in stock this many years down the road. Their RF power transistors are all made by the same sources that would print a "2SC" or "MRF" or "CD" or "SD"on the part when it was marketed by its original manufacturer. Bear in mind that a particular NTE part could have started its life with more than one original number on it.

73

 

[unit_399]

Back in the late 70s, when the cb boom was happening I was heavily into cb sales and service. There was a company called FUJI-SVEA that was the US distributor for any and all Japanese semiconductors and ICs. They were in Torrance Cal. if I remember. 2SC1306,1307,2312,etc., cost about 18 cents each. 858s and 8719s were about half a buck. An aftermarket "direct replacement" part cost 10 times as much. I was living in SoCal then, and when Fuji had their "Going out of business" sale, I bought $500 worth of parts. Went home with thousands of parts. I still have a lot of them.
So many of the "techs" in my area had no idea about Fuji and used Sylvania/ECG aftermarket parts. The problem with these was (as Nomad said) that their specs were close but not 100 %. A cb with an aftermarket driver/final would dead key OK, but had no swing because their hfe (ac current gain) wasn't anywhere near that of the OEM Japanese part.
I'm sure that this is still true about rf aftermarket parts today.

-399

 

[Onelasttime]

I keep am eye out for NOS parts especially if I can get a good deal. I was just wondering since I do pick up NOS NTE, ECG, SK and Phillips parts.

While everyone and their mom seem to counterfeit Toshiba, Motorola, Fujitsu, Mitsubishi etc....I am hoping no one is going to counterfeit NTE, ECG, SK parts especially in their old packaging. That is the hope at least!

I remember TV repair shops, Radio Shack, Sear's etc....selling those prepacked ECG, NTE, SK parts packages. They hung from Peg's.

High power bipolars are so expensive that for the right price I figure I can not go wrong. That said I like to know my risks and understand exactly what I am looking at and might be buying.

Cheer's guys!

 

[9C1Driver]

"High power bipolars are so expensive that for the right price I figure I can not go wrong. That said I like to know my risks and understand exactly what I am looking at and might be buying."

Had to edit this paragraph, I think I see more where you are trying to go with this. Hope you find some usable stuff for what you need.

At this point HG seems to be making a decent selection of replacements at a more reasonable price. And even these are not drop in replacements but they require much less modification to the amplifier. At least there is that option.

 

[nomadradio]

Fuji-Svea was a lifesaver in the mid/late 70s. They were the only source of original far-east original-number semiconductors until around 1980. An outfit called MCM Audio sprang up south of Dayton Ohio around then, and a left-coast outfit called ORA Electronics. Others followed along. By the mid-1980s japanese-numbered part suppliers were popping up every year.

Those outfits are mostly gone now, same as your local outfit who sold NTE/ECG/SK parts on a pegboard wall along with the customers who kept them alive.

The market for replacement parts didn't die with a bang, but the whimper just gets a little louder every year.

73

 

[Onelasttime]

"High power bipolars are so expensive that for the right price I figure I can not go wrong. That said I like to know my risks and understand exactly what I am looking at and might be buying."

Had to edit this paragraph, I think I see more where you are trying to go with this. Hope you find some usable stuff for what you need.

At this point HG seems to be making a decent selection of replacements at a more reasonable price. And even these are not drop in replacements but they require much less modification to the amplifier. At least there is that option.

Yes hindsight is 20/20....LOL I wish I had stocked up when I was not in the hobby but was following along online.

I do have some HG 2879's on hand.

 

[Onelasttime]

Back in the late 70s, when the cb boom was happening I was heavily into cb sales and service. There was a company called FUJI-SVEA that was the US distributor for any and all Japanese semiconductors and ICs. They were in Torrance Cal. if I remember. 2SC1306,1307,2312,etc., cost about 18 cents each. 858s and 8719s were about half a buck. An aftermarket "direct replacement" part cost 10 times as much. I was living in SoCal then, and when Fuji had their "Going out of business" sale, I bought $500 worth of parts. Went home with thousands of parts. I still have a lot of them.
So many of the "techs" in my area had no idea about Fuji and used Sylvania/ECG aftermarket parts. The problem with these was (as Nomad said) that their specs were close but not 100 %. A cb with an aftermarket driver/final would dead key OK, but had no swing because their hfe (ac current gain) wasn't anywhere near that of the OEM Japanese part.
I'm sure that this is still true about rf aftermarket parts today.

-399

Good to know.

I have noticed that hfe's on chinese transistors are always on what we would consider low to medium gain back when Japanese and American transistors where the norm. The HG 2879 transistors I see online are usually in the high 50 to low 70 range. I have never seen or heard of anyone getting a triple digit high power rf bipolar in an HG package!

When I was in high school 1988-1992 it was not at all difficult to get MRF455, 454, 421, 426, 429 etc.....with an hfe of 100 to150. I used triple digit hfe MRF455's to build my first and second amp the first a 1x and the 2nd a 2x.

I have driven imports most of life with just a few domestics tossed in. Hi output alternators have always been hit and miss on imports. So it was always important for me to use as little current as I could to achieve the desired outcome in mobile applications.

The trick though is how much beta gain is enough beta gain to get the job done vs up front cost?

 

[nomadradio]

Conventional wisdom has been that a transistor with a lower DC beta makes it easier to stabilize the bias current as temperature rises. Sure wish I could remember who told me that.

Besides, power gain is what you really care about. DC beta is a side issue so long as you get the wattage you intend to get.

73

 

[Onelasttime]

I was always taught that high hfe produces more power and more swing at any given input power but lower hfe equals more durability. The guy that taught me was a fantastic technician and instructor. That said I was in high school so he might have been dumbing things down for me as well!

I am not repeat not an electrical engineer, electronic circuit designer, electronic technician. I do ok to keep my own gear running and populate a board and trouble shoot it! LOL I should take the time and learn more!

Every time I come on the site I learn something!