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length of coax

Sounds reasonable. Of course, so does correcting the actual problem, rather than making adjustments where they aren't needed and potentially may cause other problems.
Particular feed line lengths certainly do make good tools. But like any tool, once you find the problem and correct it, you put the tool away. [Nothing wrong with using clamps/braces to hold things together while you weld/glue/ or wait for the bone to grow back together. And then you put the clmap/brace/cast away cuz it just gets in the way.]
If the input to some device isn't what the rest of the system want's to see, adjust it till it is. There are some things that are extremely difficult to 'adjust', coax just happens to be one of them. Inputs to amplifiers and antennas are extremely easy in comparison and don't come with 'built-in' potential problems.
- 'Doc

'TANSTAAFL'
 
"transform" does not automatically equate to loss.

"he didn't have a problem but the load was not perfect". the load was near perfect at R=53/X=1. this was not evident nor could it be until the tuned 1/2 wave line replaced the 6' piece of feedline.

"was there a quote there you were trying to reference?" i have quoted it twice in previous posts. here it is one more time. "the input impedance of the line depends on the line length and the operating frequency" whenever the load (amplifier or antenna input) is anything but 1:1." i do not have any other editions but the chapter numbers may change slightly from one edition to the next. the title of the chapter would be: Coupling the Line to the Antenna.

"Your posts tend to way heavy on the technical aspect of antennas." others posts are heavy on math, algebra, calculus and logarithms and no one has a porblem with any of that. "You throw complicated formulas and technical terms that most out here don't understand or even have a desire to understand." what about the ones who do want to learn and understand it? am i under a mistaken impression or is this a "technically oriented" forum?

"but its appears to be more about you showing your intelligence rather than you educating those asking the questions at a level they can understand." you don't get answers to questions like the ones DXMan asked without making them "reach up" instead of "talking down" to them, unless of course anecdotes about wood, clamps, braces, casts, welding, glue, automobiles and other nonsense is someones idea of relating that which is technical in laymans terms to someone else who wants to understand but is not familiar with the "language" of the field. furthermore i refuse to believe that there aren't any here who would like to inderstand the deeper workings who don't mind a little math and are willing to take the time to familiarize themselves with the terminology involved.

this would be like any one of us in here going off when someone posts complicated formulas as answers to questions posed by others here. it's ridiculous. it's there for those who wish to read it and no one is forcing anyone who doesn't want to. get over it.

"If they don't get it, you are wasting everyone's time." you let me worry about it. it's my time and i'll do with it as i please. i know for a fact that "everyone" doesn't apply here.

"If they want to learn more, point them to a website or suggest a good book ("Reflections" by Walter Maxwell). I see time and again where someone asks a question and then disappears when it has clearly gone into way more detail."

you know i was born in the early afternoon but not yesterday afternoon. all forums have large numbers of one shot wonders who come in and ask their questions, get some answers and then they are gone. i've seen this trend in forums for years. furthermore, if someone can't follow what is going on in here they certainly aren't going to be pouring over maxwell and getting anything more out of it.

"With all that being said, your post to DXman explaining what was happening in his set up with the different coax lengths was educational." thanks.

"He may or may not have understood it, but I enjoyed reading it." i believe he understands the basics and should he choose to invest some time and lab effort he could learn much more.

"I didn't proof your math and am basically taking your word for it, but I see no reason not to believe what you wrote." everytime i see someone post applicable math formulas i work them all whether i am familiar with them or not. anyone interested in this field cannot get enough math instruction.

."What if we used a 1/20th length of coax?" i'm going to let you all think about that for a bit while i attend to some other pressing matters. i'll be glad to go into it further at that time. although if you give it some thought you should be able to figure that out for yourself. it's another component of the oppositions proposition that i have conceded and with good reason too. think of it in terms of just exactly how much change in phase angle could possibly occur in a twentieth of a wavelength. see what you or anyone else can come up with.
 
heres how i understand it. the only time you would need to use 1/2 wave lengths. is if you dont have an antenna anylizer like a 259b.

with a 259b to check antenna and other things like your amp. if everything checks ok. then any length of coax will work.

if you dont have the 259b and you want to tune your antenna or amp you need to use 1/2 wavelengths of coax to see an acurate reading.


once tuned you should get the same reading anywere along the coax regardless of length.
 
"heres how i understand it. the only time you would need to use 1/2 wave lengths. is if you dont have an antenna anylizer like a 259b."

that could be a mistake if you have no way to measure the input impedance at the transmitter or amplifier end of the line.

"with a 259b to check antenna and other things like your amp. if everything checks ok. then any length of coax will work."

with a 259b and a tuned 1/2 wave line to check antenna and other things like your amp. if everything checks ok then any length of coax will work. OK would equal R=50/X=0 or close.

"if you dont have the 259b and you want to tune your antenna or amp you need to use 1/2 wavelengths of coax to see an acurate reading." you can't easily measure resistance and reactance without an analyzer of some type. the readings we obtained earlier in the thread were provided by an analyzer and a 1/2 wave line. they're used together.

"once tuned you should get the same reading anywere along the coax regardless of length." whether we're talking about tx and/or amp and antenna or tx and amp, if the input looking into the tx or amp end of the line is R=50 / X=0 or close, then the readings will be the same pretty much all along the line, regardless of length.

an swr meter could be used with reasonable success instead of the analyzer.
 
Well "country boy jr",
Looks like you got some good answers to your question.

Freecell,
Althou I could not follow your formula completely, I do thankyou for taking the time to show how it worked.

I do know that there is a high possibility that the amp is not tuned right and not wanting to send the amp to someone and pay more to have it FIXED, then I will just use the coax to allevite the problem for now.
(you should of seen what the readings were when I hooked a 1/4 wave line to just the antenna, was not very good - had to go back to the 1/2 wave to even get close to 50 ohms).

Anyway, I probably shouldn't be here answering any question's for "country boy jr", just haven't been in field long enough to know what the heck I am talking about - but still learning!!

Thanks guys, will be posting a question shortly on the yagi...good night.
 
freecell said:
"heres how i understand it. the only time you would need to use 1/2 wave lengths. is if you dont have an antenna anylizer like a 259b."

that could be a mistake if you have no way to measure the input impedance at the transmitter or amplifier end of the line.

"with a 259b to check antenna and other things like your amp. if everything checks ok. then any length of coax will work."

with a 259b and a tuned 1/2 wave line to check antenna and other things like your amp. if everything checks ok then any length of coax will work. OK would equal R=50/X=0 or close.

"if you dont have the 259b and you want to tune your antenna or amp you need to use 1/2 wavelengths of coax to see an acurate reading." you can't easily measure resistance and reactance without an analyzer of some type. the readings we obtained earlier in the thread were provided by an analyzer and a 1/2 wave line. they're used together.

"once tuned you should get the same reading anywere along the coax regardless of length." whether we're talking about tx and/or amp and antenna or tx and amp, if the input looking into the tx or amp end of the line is R=50 / X=0 or close, then the readings will be the same pretty much all along the line, regardless of length.

an swr meter could be used with reasonable success instead of the analyzer.

IF YOU HAVE THE 259B YOU JUST HOOK IT RIGHT TO THE FEED POINT SO COAX IS OUT OF THE EQUATION AT THAT POINT IF THE ATNEENA IS NOT TUNED AND YOU CANT GET TO THE FEEDPOINT THEN YA 1/2 WAVE LENGTH. O0PS sorry about caps. but then again if you can get to the feed point no need to cut a 1/2 wave length. shrugs.
 
I DIDNT MEAN TO GET ANY DUST STURED UP, I THANK ALL FOR THE HELP AND IN PUT, I WAS JUST CURIOUS BECAUSE OF THE DIFFERENT READINGS I WAS GETTING ON - MFJ METER, BUT REFLECT LOOKS GOOD NOW JUST NEED TO FINE TUNE MY SETUP THANKS AGAIN FOR THE HELP, GOD BLESS!! C.B.J. ;)
 
country boy jr said:
I DIDNT MEAN TO GET ANY DUST STURED UP, I THANK ALL FOR THE HELP AND IN PUT, I WAS JUST CURIOUS BECAUSE OF THE DIFFERENT READINGS I WAS GETTING ON - MFJ METER, BUT REFLECT LOOKS GOOD NOW JUST NEED TO FINE TUNE MY SETUP THANKS AGAIN FOR THE HELP, GOD BLESS!! C.B.J. ;)


this has been hashed over and over and bottom line is if your equipment is right then any lenght of coax will do. FREECELL and the rest are just stiring the pot.
 
DXman said:
I do know that there is a high possibility that the amp is not tuned right and not wanting to send the amp to someone and pay more to have it FIXED, then I will just use the coax to allevite the problem for now.
Its as good as it could get! Nothing needs fixing on your end. The perfect load is as common as an isotropic radiator!

DXman said:
Anyway, I probably shouldn't be here answering any question's for "country boy jr", just haven't been in field long enough to know what the heck I am talking about - but still learning!!
Keep answering questions, your post was right on!
 
"this has been hashed over and over and bottom line is if your equipment is right then any lenght of coax will do. FREECELL and the rest are just stiring the pot."

no, i simply explained and demonstrated to DXMan how he could determine what the real values of R and X (impedance) were at the input to his amplifier. because of the 6' line he was using between the transmitter and amplifier his analyzer indicated that these values were R=62/X=3. these readings were inaccurate. by his own admission he stated that when he replaced the 6' line with a tuned 1/2 wave then as measured at the analyzer R=53/X=1. NOW he was "seeing" the real values of R and X at the input of his amplifier, because of the specific and inherent "mirroring" properties of a particular length of feedline.

if that stirs you or anyone else to some uncontrollable emotion or action then that's your problem. if it stirs some people in here to think, re-think and examine all of this for themselves and promotes further intelligent discussion based on the evidence presented then it is having the effect that i intended.

as far as "rehashing" goes, i'll discuss all of this over and over as many times as the subject comes up or is presented in the form of a question as long as those who presume to present the entire concept in a deceptive light by continuing the "whatever makes it" mantra and the members here fail to avail themselves the use of the search feature here in the forum.
 
freecell said:
those who presume to present the entire concept in a deceptive light
I don't believe anyone here is trying to deceive anyone. You could have made your point without taking this jab.
 

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