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Marconi's new Gain Master with a matching network

OK, so instead of current-fed, it's voltage-fed, providing two 1/2 wave current nodes.

Yes.

One, positive, to the right,
one, negative, to the left.

This is where you are going wrong. They are both positive at the same time and both negative at the same time. You are thinking of this antenna like it is a single element or pole, it is not, the "di" prefix means two, each pole acts independently from the other based on their relation to where the feed point is, their electric lengths are not additive when determining current distribution.

Two poles that are 1/2 electrical wavelength long or less and are in line going opposite directions will always be 100% in phase. People have shown current distributions from modeling above that show this. I will do it again just for you.

5.jpg


This is a current distribution of a dipole antenna with two 1/2 electric wavelength sides. This is showing current plus phase. As you can see, it is voltage fed as it is fed at a current null. You also see the current strengths on both sides of the antenna are represented as being in the same direction from the antenna, if one were positive and one were negative as you seem to think, one would be on one side of the antenna and the other would be on the other side of the antenna, or in this case, one lobe would be up and one lobe would be down.

The feed point location forces all of the current on an antenna of this size or smaller to be in phase. If this were a mono-pole antenna, you would be right when it comes to one positive and one negative, but it is not.


The DB
 
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NB, I've heard guys talk about current nodes before and I'm always curious what part of the dipole they are pointing at. You or Bob can surely get this straight for me in my thinking. Is the current node(s) on the ends or in the middle?

The current node is the point that has a current peak. In your example when asking this question of a 1/2 wavelength dipole it will be right at the feed point. In your model logs, look for which segment the current is the highest, and the current strength goes down in both directions as you move away from it, the current node will be on that segment. On the antenna's current distribution I posted in my previous post there are two current nodes.


The DB
 
Yes.



This is where you are going wrong. They are both positive at the same time and both negative at the same time. You are thinking of this antenna like it is a single element or pole, it is not, the "di" prefix means two, each pole acts independently from the other based on their relation to where the feed point is, their electric lengths are not additive when determining current distribution.

Two poles that are 1/2 electrical wavelength long or less and are in line going opposite directions will always be 100% in phase. People have shown current distributions from modeling above that show this. I will do it again just for you.

5.jpg


This is a current distribution of a dipole antenna with two 1/2 electric wavelength sides. This is showing current plus phase. As you can see, it is voltage fed as it is fed at a current null. You also see the current strengths on both sides of the antenna are represented as being in the same direction from the antenna, if one were positive and one were negative as you seem to think, one would be on one side of the antenna and the other would be on the other side of the antenna, or in this case, one lobe would be up and one lobe would be down.

The feed point location forces all of the current on an antenna of this size or smaller to be in phase. If this were a mono-pole antenna, you would be right when it comes to one positive and one negative, but it is not.


The DB
I believe I'm tracking with your excellent explanations, Bob85 & The DB,
however,
- if one was to measure the voltage at the end of the coax, the feed point, where it attaches to the two 1/2 waves, (one 1/2 wave connected to the coax shield stretching to the left, and the other 1/2 wave connected to the coax center lead stretching to the right) the voltage with reference to a ground rod would be positive on one side, negative on the other, and 180° out of phase from each other.

- In order to have radiation I don't see how two opposing poles are not opposing, causing cancellation,
but can have in-phase current nodes...?

Since it requires 360° to complete a sine wave, and your example shows only two positive current nodes, where have the two negative current nodes (required to have a complete sine wave) gone?
- Per each of the two positive (+180°) nodes, where's the -180°?

Now, it seems correct to me that if a solid, unbroken full-wave of wire were fed at it's center by being connected to the center of the coax, (and perhaps the shield might connect to a matching circuit or ground rod) THEN it seems fair you should see what your model shows, two in-phase 180° current nodes emanating from their mutual voltage-feeded point, (if you devised a voltage-peak feeding system.)

...but maybe I just need more sleep :D
 
The more I read, the more confused I get. One minute it is currents and such and a minute later it is voltage and such.
 
The more I read, the more confused I get. One minute it is currents and such and a minute later it is voltage and such.
Well Eddie, it depends on how & where you feed it, and if it's length to the tip is a multiple of a 1/4 or of a 1/2 wave, or...

When you feed at a current node you tend to have close to a 50Ω feed point impedance, a voltage node is closer to 1KΩ to infinite impedance.

What Bob85 & The DB are referring to, here, is feeding the full-wave dipole (2 x 1/2 wave) at the minimal current, maximum voltage node where the impedance will be extremely high...
- Now, I KNOW you already know this so what, exactly, are you scratching your heed over? :)

BTW, it's the Current which does the work, and what we look for, to project which polarization the antenna will be.

For example; Feed a Quad installed in the square shape, at the center of the bottom and you'll have an horizontally polarized radiation pattern because the current peak is found at the feed point,
... going toward minimum current and maximum voltage 90° away, at the center of the upward (vertical) sides of the square, because the current & voltage are 90° out of phase.

Eddie, This is partly why I'm having a hard time with the dual 1/2 wave "in-phase" dipole design we've been discussing here, because feeding it (either with coax or balanced line) - it will want to bring the high current node to the center feed point, especially if using a tuner, because that's where it finds the most friendly impedance,
- but that will then show a pattern like this model! (which also shows a little of the equal but opposite currents on the balanced feed line, as it meets the antenna elements).

What the 2 x 1/2 wave dipole needs in order to present two "centered-peak" current nodes (or bubbles) - 1 per side - is a forced VOLTAGE-FEED which is extremely high impedance at the feed point, as you know from your 1/2 wave monopole models.

My contention is that the two sides won't be in-phase but will each show a 180° difference in potential to a neutral ground, and directly broadside to this dipole they will cancel one another,
- but at an obtuse angle, (say 45° from directly broadside) it should provide about a 6dB-down cloverleaf shape - where the receiving station will be seeing the closer element about 90° earlier or sooner than the further element, allowing about 1/4 power to radiate in that direction.

In my mind's eye, if a 1/2 wave U-turn of wire, (like a 1/4 wave of hanging balanced line which was shorted across at it's bottom end and blowing in the breeze) were added at the voltage-feeded point of the 2 x 1/2 wave dipole, but on ONE SIDE only, then that first 1/2 wave of out-of-phase energy on that side only would go down the balanced line 1/4 wave and back up 1/4 wave (1/2 wave total) - creating a null condition for that out-of-phase 1/2 wave of current and re-phasing back IN-phase that side of the 2 x 1/2 wave dipole, only half of which is connected to the other side of the top of that piece of shorted balanced line - creating a condition so now the two sides of the 2 x 1/2 wave dipole would both be in the same phase.

...I probably could've written that better :unsure: - But there ya go, I laid a pretty big egg, anyone wanna try to boil it?
 
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Now, I KNOW you already know this so what, exactly, are you scratching your heed over? :)

True...I was scratching my head and wondering about the original issue you raised...and I know you knew that too and I asked myself why then the question. :confused:

Check out your post #4 below in the link. I understand though...sometimes I get into a daze too.

Marconi's new Gain Master with a matching network
 
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True...I was scratching my head and wondering about the original issue you raised...and I know you knew that too and I asked myself why then the question. :confused:

Check out your post #4 below in the link. I understand though...sometimes I get into a daze too.

Marconi's new Gain Master with a matching network
Right, that's been my same question as to how they can be in-phase since post 4.
- Not certain I'm seeing your point here...?
 
NB, I don't really have a point. I was thinking the point should be in the discussion and I just thought it a bit confusing. I was just casting a comment...because you guys know this stuff generally speaking and I wondered why it seemed like an argument to me, first one talking about currents and then the other coming back and talking about voltage.

I thought the topic raised was a pretty simple concept and that Bob pretty much described it simply.

I should have stayed out of it. Sorry!
 
NB, I don't really have a point. I was thinking the point should be in the discussion and I just thought it a bit confusing. I was just casting a comment...because you guys know this stuff generally speaking and I wondered why it seemed like an argument to me, first one talking about currents and then the other coming back and talking about voltage.

I thought the topic raised was a pretty simple concept and that Bob pretty much described it simply.

I should have stayed out of it. Sorry!
NO! I enjoy you "in it", just wasn't sure what you were asking.

And Bob85 & The DB basically stated their points which could be true, could be just their opinion, and they offered a website to back it - as did I, and that's just the rub. There's two schools of thought and I've offered some explanation in terms of physics, phase, voltages & nodes to back my opinion, which could be mistaken (not "wrong" - I'm never "wrong".
...once, I thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken. ;) :D ) - but I've not seen anything of the like from the opposing side yet, though I'm hungry for it if it would change my mind & open my minds eye to seeing the reverse of what seems mathematically & physically logical to me.

Basically, I'm about ready to build one and test it. I'll first need to wrap about a 30:1 balloon... er, uhm, bale-un, sorry, BAL-un - to force the high voltage node at the feed point & match it to my 50Ω coax, expecting it will be about a 1500Ω feed point impedance.

So, regardless of who thinks this or whom thinks that, "Proof's in the pudding." (y)


...and another website with pictures(!) which says basically what I was trying to, the 2nd utilizing a 1/2 wave phase-aligning section.

Here & Here
 
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I don't have a lot of time here, but I do want to address something.

Eddie, This is partly why I'm having a hard time with the dual 1/2 wave "in-phase" dipole design we've been discussing here, because feeding it (either with coax or balanced line) - it will want to bring the high current node to the center feed point, especially if using a tuner, because that's where it finds the most friendly impedance,

The feed point impedance does not change with weather the feed point is fed with "voltage" or "current". This is determined by the antenna's layout and electrical properties. My video below demonstrates this with modeling.

- but that will then show a pattern like this model! (which also shows a little of the equal but opposite currents on the balanced feed line, as it meets the antenna elements).

Get that pattern out of your head. It is impossible on the antennas we are discussing. I can show you the current distribution when using a voltage and current sources for an antenna, and neither will generate a voltage/current pattern like that. Also, again, it isn't the feed line that determines the feed point impedance of the antenna, it doesn't matter if you are using a "voltage" source or a "current" source. You can't have one without the other anyway, so saying you are using only one is simply not true.

Here watch this video demonstrating my point. The current+phase relationship on a resonant full wavelength dipole antenna being fed first with a "voltage" source, and second with a "current" source. While I don't directly bring it up, you can see the SWR and feed point impedance also don't change between the two types of feed points demonstrated.



And about this website, I'm sorry but you are misunderstanding what they are saying.

The text that goes along with this image.

dipole3.gif

If one joins a second half-wave length of wire to the end of the first dipole, the two sections operate out of phase: the current distribution an one instant would be like this:

With this text, the feed point is not in the center of this antenna as you added a half wavelength wire to the antenna itself, but is in fact off center, which will break the full antenna being in phase. I stated above that if you have two equal length half wavelength or less sections that all of the antenna will be in phase, but this is not a representation of that. Read the description, he started with a half wavelength dipole, and then added a half wavelength of wire, he never stated he moved the feed point to compensate. This is an accurate representation of an antenna with a 1/4 wavelength leg and a 3/4 wavelength leg, it is definitely not within the limits I set for being completely in phase.

And the text that goes along with this image.

dipole5.gif


If one introduces a phase shift of 180 degrees (corresponding to one half wavelength), at the joint, both sections can be made to work in phase, to have a current distribution:

A strategic 180 degree phase shift. How did he achieve that phase shift? He adds a stub, the very next image shows this stub, I'll post it here.

trap.gif


This is at the center point of the antenna to keep the entire antenna in phase, you will note that this is not a feed point, that is elsewhere on the antenna. He actually demonstrated the antenna he is discussing how to create with the first image on the page, I'll pose it here...

dipole1.gif


From left to right we have a 1/4 wavelength section, then the feed point, then another 1/4 wavelength section, then a phasing stub, then a 1/2 wavelength section. He ends up getting a similar result when it comes to current distribution, but he does it in a different way. This antenna design, if you get the dimensions correct, will be much easier to feed than what bob85 and I are talking about as you are feeding it at a current node, but it is still a different antenna, apples and oranges comparison.

You want links to web pages that show this? How about this one, there is also this one.

And this image you seem to like this image...

full_wave_dipole.jpg


Lets make a comparison to a G5RV antenna at 18 MHz, a frequency that the G5RV antenna is a little over 1.5 (as the period is hard to see on my screen I am verifying that that is one and a half) wavelengths long. Look familiar?

fig5.gif


Actually, both of these images share a common error, bonus points to the first person that catches it and says what it is...

When it comes to using web sites, I prefer more reliable sources, and yes, I am saying web sites are not reliable sources, just look at my previous statement, if those sites were both accurate I wouldn't have been able to make my bonus points comment...

That ended up taking more time than I thought it would... Late to bed and early to rise means not enough sleep... :(


The DB
 
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DB.
What i notice about the images is the outer 1/2wave of each leg is drawn at about 1:2 scale
You can't have 1/2wave of radiation on one half of the element and 1/4wave on the other.
 
DB.
What i notice about the images is the outer 1/2wave of each leg is drawn at about 1:2 scale
You can't have 1/2wave of radiation on one half of the element and 1/4wave on the other.

You are correct, however, that is not what I was referring to. The first of the two (Needle Bender's), if you look closely, actually looks like the tip might actually be a current peak, which is electrically impossible. In any case, both of these were drawn by hand rather than computer generated, so I tend to give them a pass on some things, it is a mistake I might have made if I would have made such drawings by hand or with something like Microsoft Paint as my drawing sucks...

Take a look at the dotted lines on the antenna side where they meet the stubs and compare them to the dotted lines on the stubs (some people might think feed lines). On the antenna you have a high point, on the stub you have a low point. You aren't going to go from a peak to a null that quickly, such a thing without something manipulating the phase is electrically impossible, yet both of these images show that happening.


The DB
 
Its hard to make out exactly what NB's image is supposed to be depicting but its not possible with a straight wire antenna.

At first it looked like the tips were folded down but zooming in it looks like the outer 1/2waves have been compressed into a none sinusoidal pattern as if he started drawing and part way through realised he was running out of room so he squeezed small distorted 1/2waves on the end.

To my eyes the stub looks to be over 1/2wave & drawn to a different scale to either the inner or outer dipole legs. its a very poorly drawn depiction of what's going on.
 
OK, Now that all the artwork critiquing is finished (I HOPE) - let's get back to the point.

On the left (coax shield) you have a negatively charged voltage-fed 1/2 wave,

on the right (coax center) you have (the opposing) positively charged voltage-fed 1/2 wave.

How are these opposing charges IN-phase?
 

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