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Modulation/Over-Modulation on a O'scope

Robb

Honorary Member Silent Key
Dec 18, 2008
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Silicon Valley CA, Storm Lake IA
I found this viddy on YouTube. Real nice job of showing what various modulation percentage levels look like on a scope. Is it a cure for those who like to clip the AM limiter out? Prolly not. But it gives one a fair idea of why it shouldn't be done and what it looks like on the scope. It also shows that 100% modulation is enough - unless you have the NPC mod it it. That mod needs to be done a bit differently.

You don't have to be a tech to understand what is happening in this viddy. He will explain what is happening and what it means.

Please note the flat line on the top of the sine wave - when it becomes 'square wave' - which is what distortion looks like. He used a tone generator to show over-modulation/square wave. But checking it with a mic and the human voice is best to see the over-modulation as it occurs under real-life use.

Thanks Dave @ Dave's CB Shop near Carlisle, PA for this viddy.
Nice job!
(y)




‪CB Radio Modulation Discussed‬‏ - YouTube
 
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Nice guy good to deal with BTW =) 8 miles from My house

Hmmm... That has been stored in the memory of ... Oh hell what to do now , CALL a professional and send it to them.

The man made a video of his work and named his work place. Might call it bragging, but I'd guess thats confidence in knowing what he is doing.
 
Finally a CB tech that understands what modulation is and does. The only problem I have with what he said is near the end with his reference to listening to the stereo. When cranking up the volume until it distorts is not exceeding 100% modulation on a stereo. Since no carrier is used there is no modulation and all the stereo is doing is flattopping due to excedding the headroom in the amp or the power supply powering it. The sound may be the same but the cause is completely different.
 
Hm. When he first turns the scope on, what he claims is "a basic waveform that is not modulated" is really being modulated. If there was no modulation at all (e.g. dead key), the signal should look like a solid band, like a rectangular block in the middle of the screen. I'm not really sure what's being displayed at that point: some of it looks like his voice being picked up by the mic, but the rest looks like noise. (Maybe a squeal?)

Also, the scope display fluctuates a lot, like the probe is picking up noise from somewhere. Unfortunately he doesn't say how he's sampling the output from the rig, but that may have something to do with it.

He still illustrates the basic premise correctly, but his execution could be a little better. :)

-Bill
 
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I sent Dave a note and asked him if he would show how a NPC/RC mod should look on a scope. I know that a scope cannot detect the asymmetry of the form; just what the scope reading should look like in general. As well as discuss other pros and cons of using a scope. We will see what happens.

Maybe unit248 can do it instead?
 
Sure a 'scope can detect and display the asymmetrical waveform. Why couldn't it? In broadcasting we routinely ran 100% neg mod with 120% pos mod. and set the levels with a 'scope. One time I had problems with a solidstate TX that was pulse code modulated (PCM) class D. It had adjustments to set the pos mod peaks. During testing we ran it at 100% neg and a bit over 200% pos peak mod to see if it would break down. The 'scope displayed the waveform beautifully.
 
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Sure a 'scope can detect and display the asymmetrical waveform. Why couldn't it? In broadcasting we routinely ran 100% neg mod with 120% pos mod. and set the levels with a 'scope. One time I had problems with a solidstate TX that was pulse code modulated (PCM) class D. It had adjustments to set the pos mod peaks. During testing we ran it at 100% neg and a bit over 200% pos peak mod to see if it would break down. The 'scope displayed the waveform beautifully.

Pics? Viddys?
An explanation is what I am looking for in simplest terms
Any/all would be great . . .
 
I sent Dave a note and asked him if he would show how a NPC/RC mod should look on a scope. I know that a scope cannot detect the asymmetry of the form; just what the scope reading should look like in general. As well as discuss other pros and cons of using a scope. We will see what happens.

Maybe unit248 can do it instead?

only thing better for showing asymetric modulation and overmodulation than a scope is a spectrum analyser, which will show exactly how wide the signals bandwidth becomes with asymetric modulation and overmodulation, its disgusting how much spectrum can be polluted through morons hacking limiters.

i'm not sure you'll get any tech who does npc/rc to show you spectrum analyser and scope pics at the same time, it wouldn't make for pleasant viewing and a widescreen monitor would be essential.

nice to see a tech who knows about modulation, but i think he could do with brushing up on his scope skills, including sampling, but the video serves the purpose it was intended for.

As for his hifi analogy, as Garth says, its caused by a completely different thing, but one thing they do share is DISTORTION sucks.
 
only thing better for showing asymetric modulation and overmodulation than a scope is a spectrum analyser, which will show exactly how wide the signals bandwidth becomes with asymetric modulation and overmodulation, its disgusting how much spectrum can be polluted through morons hacking limiters.
Pretty much was my thought too. Just wondering how to do it right using a scope though. I can use a scope for a bunch of things; but reading asymmetric modulation is not one of them. Want to nail that one next, as I have a radio or three that I want to use the NPC mod on and do it RIGHT . . .
 
I don't know what you are looking for Robb. Looking at asymmetrical mod is the same as symmetrical mod except the pos peaks are higher than the neg peaks. Set the scope up to show a carrier centered in the display.Adjust the vertical deflection control to say four full divisions that way each little reticule is 10% modulation.The neg peaks should extend no more than two full divisions below the carrier and the pos can extend to whatever you want. Modulation can be read by how far above the carrier the peaks extend.Below is an image showing normal symmetrical audio and asymmetrical audio. See the difference on the right? This is not a great pix but it shows how the pos peaks extend further than the neg peaks.

neg_peak_lim.gif
 
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I sent Dave a note and asked him if he would show how a NPC/RC mod should look on a scope. I know that a scope cannot detect the asymmetry of the form; just what the scope reading should look like in general. As well as discuss other pros and cons of using a scope. We will see what happens.

Maybe unit248 can do it instead?

Sadly, I don't have a sacrificial radio on which I could perform an NPC mod for demo purposes. The 3 HF transmitters I have are my Kenwood rigs, which I don't want to chop up in the first place, and which are all low-level modulated. The TS-430 and TS-850 both do AM using an AN612 balanced modulator chip, and the TS-950SDX does AM modulation inside the DSP unit. I'm not sure that the typical RF-stage NPC/RC mod would be feasible with this kind of design.

However, a while ago I did capture a few images from the TS-850 (with the DSP-100 unit turned off) showing what low-level over-modulation looks like. (Be warned: these images are kind of big.)

This first photo is an unmodulated dead carrier:

http://people.freebsd.org/~wpaul/ts-850/modulation/balanced/PICT0179.JPG

The second photo shows the same carrier at 100% modulation:

http://people.freebsd.org/~wpaul/ts-850/modulation/balanced/PICT0180.JPG

The third shows over-modulation:

http://people.freebsd.org/~wpaul/ts-850/modulation/balanced/PICT0181.JPG

These were captured using my Kenwood SM-230 station monitor. It's designed to operate as an IF band scope (with either the TS-850 or TS-950 rigs), TX signal monitor and a simple single-channel scope (10Mhz). It also has a built-in two tone audio signal generator for testing, which is what I used to generate the 1000Hz tone to modulate the carrier in the above pictures. The TX signal monitor is basically the same as scope mode, but the signal is sampled via the PL-259 input/putput connectors on the back (you put it in-line with your coax). In regular scope mode, you can just use a standard probe with the BNC input in the front.

Unlike high-level over-modulation, low-level over-modulation produces "bumps" at the negative peak points where a high-level over-modulated signal would just flatten out. The distortion you get is different, but still undesirable. This is an artifact of the balanced modulator chip behavior. Note that the 100% modulation image actually shows very slight over-modulation: if you look very closely you can see the beginnings of some small bumps. I didn't quite get the mic gain control set right.

Although the TS-950SDX uses the DSP for modulation, it produces similar results when over-modulating, so I always use the SM-230 in TX monitor mode when setting the mic gain control to make sure there's no distortion. (This is a good example of where "playing it by ear" just doesn't cut it: it's very hard to tell just by listening if the audio is really clean. There's no missing it with the scope though.)

It think that with this type of transmitter, the only way to get negative peak compression might be to do it at the audio stage, and then use RF amplification to make up the difference. I don't have the right kind of audio processing gear to do that though. Maybe some day.

As far as being able to see asymmetric modulation on a scope, yeah, you should be able to do it, but I think you sort of need to sit and carefully count the divisions in the reticle in order to gauge it. With a symmetrical sine wave, you know the crossover point is right between the peaks, but once you start compressing the negative peaks, it can be a little hard to just eyeball it. I think the best way to do it is to start with a dead/unmodulated carrier and set the transmitter power and/or scope signal attenuator controls so that it fits exactly between to major divisions on the screen. Those division lines are the crossover points for the audio waveform that you'll be superimposing onto the carrier. Once you've made a note of those reference points, you can start cranking up the mic gain until you reach 100% modulation (the positive peaks should now be two major divisions wide instead of one). Then as you keep turning the gain up, the positive peaks should keep growing and ideally the negative peaks should remain at their current positions and retain their curved shape, but start to look more "smushed" compared to the positive peaks.

There's one thing I've never been to clear on about this though: some NPC mods prevent the negative peaks from reach 0 output entirely (i.e. from letting the waveform on the scope turn into a flat line), but still allow the negative peaks to attain a flattened shape. But supposedly it's that flat shape that causes most of the unwanted harmonics to be generated (the closer you get to a square wave, the more harmonics you get), so I would think it would be better to compress the negative peaks while preserving the sinusoidal shape too. But people don't seem to worry about maintaining the curved shape though, and I'm not sure why.

My guess is that it's probably preferable to use the latter approach, but it's technically easier to accomplish the latter, and while allowing the negative peaks to flatten out is not as good as keeping them curved, it's considered a reasonable trade-off.

-Bill
 
Definitely informative, but I was wondering myself why he was not using the triggering in the scope to lock a solid waveform on the screen.

Here is another video I seen a couple weeks ago & thought it was interesting, shows 100% modulation on the scope pretty well. (I will post the video at the bottom, I have never posted a video before, so hopefully it works, haha)

I am not advertising for him, just seen the vid & thought it was somewhat informative on modulation. I know there was quite a debate before about his product, but he also demonstrates his mauldulator showing the negative peaks remaining at 100% & allowing the positive peaks to climb.

I set my modulation clean anymore, I use to be one of those guys with everything as loud as possible, but after hearing how bad those stations sound (I was one of them) out there on the airwaves I decided that was not for me. I like the hifi style / clean audio anymore. Hopefully more people will realize that although clipping the limiter makes you louder, it defeats the purpose because it also makes most of the people harder to understand, so what does it accomplish in the end. As long as I can mostly understand what people are saying I don’t really worry about it though. Some guys like the crunchy over-modulated sound.

Just my 2 cents!

It is good to see more people out there cleaning up there audio a little bit.

Mauldulator on the Galaxy 2527.wmv - YouTube
 

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