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multiple antenna on a mobile

711,
A couple of things. None of them are all that important, but might give you a clearer 'picture' of what's happening.
Instead of a figure '8' type pattern, think of it as a sort of elongated football, sort of. The pattern really doesn't 'pinch' down in the center like with an '8', where the antennas are. How much 'pinch' depends a lot on the distance between the two antennas. That distance is measured in 'wave lengths', not in feet/inches, and the further the two are apart, the more 'pinch' there is. It never gets to the point of there being no signal to the sides of the 'pinch'.
One antenna being shorter than the other will make a difference in the radiation pattern. That also depends on if the antennas are the same, or if one of them is 'naturally' shorter than the other if they aren't the same. If both antennas are resonant at the same frequency (close), then it's almost as if they were the same type of antenna. Otherwise, the shorter antenna is the 'director', the longer one the 'reflector'. The radiation pattern typically goes toward the shorter of the two. If you mix a little 'phasing' into that you get some kind of random pattern that you really don't have any idea of where it's going (without a LOT of testing).
Phasing isn't exactly something you want to do with a directional antenna like a beam. You can, but you won't have any idea of how it turns out. Phasing is normally done with antennas of the same 'size', usually two or more of the same antenna. With there being no difference in the radiation pattern of each antenna, phasing them means the result is predictable. The more 'difference' between the two (or more) antennas used, the less predictable the result.
Oh and now the fun part! The whole mess is dependent on the "ground" of the phased antennas. That does NOT just mean the size of the vehicle, since the vehicle isn't the only 'ground' used by a mobile. The other part of the 'ground' used is the capacitive ground of the 'dirt' under that vehicle, which changes ALL the time. That means that the resulting radiation pattern is always changing (unless the vehicle is sitting still). The direction of the pattern isn't changing so much, but it's overall size/shape is. This is at HF. VHF and UHF aren't affected so much because the typical vehicle is almost always more than just a single wavelength in size. But they are affected to some extent, just not enough to worry about, sort of. [About ready to give the whole thing up as a bad idea? Don't, it's not really as bad as it sounds, sort of. But you should be aware of it.]
There are two ways to get a directional antenna, beams and phasing. They are not the same even if you end up with the same results. Don't mix the two unless you want a ~lot~ of aggravation. :)
And while we're at it, you can also 'steer' a phased antenna system, vary it's phasing to 'turn' it in the directions you want. One way is to use switchable phasing lines, or 'lump' the circuitry into one box and twist dials. If that's interesting to you I'd suggest getting a copy of the amateur 'Handbook', it has phasing in it (or the 'Antenna' book(s)). It really isn't all that simple, but it also really isn't all that difficult!
- 'Doc

(Wish I got paid by the word. ... hell, just wish I got paid!)
(No I don't. Higher tax bracket, ain't going there.)
 
711,
A couple of things. None of them are all that important, but might give you a clearer 'picture' of what's happening.
Instead of a figure '8' type pattern, think of it as a sort of elongated football, sort of. The pattern really doesn't 'pinch' down in the center like with an '8', where the antennas are. How much 'pinch' depends a lot on the distance between the two antennas. That distance is measured in 'wave lengths', not in feet/inches, and the further the two are apart, the more 'pinch' there is. It never gets to the point of there being no signal to the sides of the 'pinch'.
One antenna being shorter than the other will make a difference in the radiation pattern. That also depends on if the antennas are the same, or if one of them is 'naturally' shorter than the other if they aren't the same. If both antennas are resonant at the same frequency (close), then it's almost as if they were the same type of antenna. Otherwise, the shorter antenna is the 'director', the longer one the 'reflector'. The radiation pattern typically goes toward the shorter of the two. If you mix a little 'phasing' into that you get some kind of random pattern that you really don't have any idea of where it's going (without a LOT of testing).
Phasing isn't exactly something you want to do with a directional antenna like a beam. You can, but you won't have any idea of how it turns out. Phasing is normally done with antennas of the same 'size', usually two or more of the same antenna. With there being no difference in the radiation pattern of each antenna, phasing them means the result is predictable. The more 'difference' between the two (or more) antennas used, the less predictable the result.
Oh and now the fun part! The whole mess is dependent on the "ground" of the phased antennas. That does NOT just mean the size of the vehicle, since the vehicle isn't the only 'ground' used by a mobile. The other part of the 'ground' used is the capacitive ground of the 'dirt' under that vehicle, which changes ALL the time. That means that the resulting radiation pattern is always changing (unless the vehicle is sitting still). The direction of the pattern isn't changing so much, but it's overall size/shape is. This is at HF. VHF and UHF aren't affected so much because the typical vehicle is almost always more than just a single wavelength in size. But they are affected to some extent, just not enough to worry about, sort of. [About ready to give the whole thing up as a bad idea? Don't, it's not really as bad as it sounds, sort of. But you should be aware of it.]
There are two ways to get a directional antenna, beams and phasing. They are not the same even if you end up with the same results. Don't mix the two unless you want a ~lot~ of aggravation. :)
And while we're at it, you can also 'steer' a phased antenna system, vary it's phasing to 'turn' it in the directions you want. One way is to use switchable phasing lines, or 'lump' the circuitry into one box and twist dials. If that's interesting to you I'd suggest getting a copy of the amateur 'Handbook', it has phasing in it (or the 'Antenna' book(s)). It really isn't all that simple, but it also really isn't all that difficult!
- 'Doc

(Wish I got paid by the word. ... hell, just wish I got paid!)
(No I don't. Higher tax bracket, ain't going there.)

I can't speak for 711, but. Thanks... That was a huge help to me.
 
That was very informative. I enjoy all aspects of RF communications, especially the CB part of the spectrum. I love theory and trying to apply it to real world, hence the love of this hobby.So using the same type of antenna(102" whip) and using the phasing idea, how would I steer the direction of the signal? I just care about the front , being here in Hawaii I am just pointing my mobile towards the states.I am about to try the beam method, running 18 ft of coax to the front whip then grounding the back whip adjusting each for the lowest SWR. The way I've been adjusting each whip is with springs and quick disconnects, its just easy and quick , better then cutting and being stuck with a useless antenna in the end. Thanks once again, i am definately looking into getting that book.Antennas are at least 75% or more of a strong station.
 
Make the reflector 5% longer.

On a Yagi, the parasitics can be grounded or not, but I found the reflector on my old set up had to be grounded.

That's the center of the connector to vehicle ground.
 
Hey 711, Ive got a chevy C1500. found the middle of the vehicle so I can mount my roof mount. Can I run my pred. 10K w/mt 102 whip along with an etention to push it 5 inches above the 10K and it will be mounted on the towing ball on the bumper????


That was very informative. I enjoy all aspects of RF communications, especially the CB part of the spectrum. I love theory and trying to apply it to real world, hence the love of this hobby.So using the same type of antenna(102" whip) and using the phasing idea, how would I steer the direction of the signal? I just care about the front , being here in Hawaii I am just pointing my mobile towards the states.I am about to try the beam method, running 18 ft of coax to the front whip then grounding the back whip adjusting each for the lowest SWR. The way I've been adjusting each whip is with springs and quick disconnects, its just easy and quick , better then cutting and being stuck with a useless antenna in the end. Thanks once again, i am definately looking into getting that book.Antennas are at least 75% or more of a strong station.
 

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