My Antenna tests, and a body/mic interference question.

[Slowpoke]

First, my antenna tests. I tried five antennas. A 4' Fire stick 2, a 4.5' Procomm quad wound with tunable tip, a 5 ' Skip Shooter, a Hustler "beer can," and my old trusty Wilson 2ks.
Three top loaded vs two center loaded. Two positions, and one cophase setup. The best ears went to the cophased W2ks, the best transmit went to the PC qw. The easiest to tune was a tie between the PC qw, and the FS2. My least favorite was the Hustler. The SS was OK, but is running 1.1 across all frequencies, which from reading through posts, and the ample info shared with me from past threads, is not a good sign. The W2ks, although cophased, had the best recieve, and remarkably so, the transmit was a bit weak. They do tune pretty well though. I may now try a P10k. I still like the ears of cophased antennas, but that PC qw really got out there. The single setup ears were not to great, inspite of the claim that the qw top load would have recieve gain, due to the increased signal capture area. Maybe a cophased setup? The SS though was disappointing in comparison. The 1.1 had me initially "excited," but the needle didn't move across all channels, and bands.
Second. I was thinking of grounding my radio. Does it help? I ask, because I noticed that static increases, and Audio decreases when I hold the Ranger mic. When I set it down, the static decreases, and audio increases. When I swapped it out with my TopGun 56 (old style RK 56,) there's no static increase, but the audio level is less. A problem with the new Ranger mic, or just my body acting as a capacitor, causing an issue? Why only with the Ranger mic?
Thanks.

 

[Handy Andy]

Any picture of the setup?

Else we don't know what you used for mounting - vehicle - location...

Need to buy a Vowel here...

​

 

[Slowpoke]

A KW T680. PC QW passenger door above window mirror mount, where I also tried Hustler and FS2. W2Ks with 18" shafts, single and cophased on ProComm T680 mirror mount replacements, and a single SS. Singles on Driver side. That'll give you a mental visual idea, lol, til I snap a few photos. Also, Single 18' Mini8 with Amphenol connections. Wilson mini8 75ohm cophase harness. The Passenger side door mirror is a higher position, with the taller PC QW getting up above the cab, just a few inches shy of 13'6".

 

[M0GVZ]

Second. I was thinking of grounding my radio. Does it help? I ask, because I noticed that static increases, and Audio decreases when I hold the Ranger mic. When I set it down, the static decreases, and audio increases. When I swapped it out with my TopGun 56 (old style RK 56,) there's no static increase, but the audio level is less. A problem with the new Ranger mic, or just my body acting as a capacitor, causing an issue? Why only with the Ranger mic?
Thanks.

You've a lack of RF ground so bad that the antenna system is even having to use the mic cable to compensate. Using mirror mounts you effectively don't have one as it's the horizontal metal directly under the antenna that counts. When you have an adequate RF ground it doesn't matter what you do, how or what you hold, what you touch, how long the coax is or whether you coil it up, it'll make no change.

Unfortunately just because you measure zero ohms between the mount and the vehicle body doesn't mean it's a good RF ground. Take a look at www.k0bg.com and the sectrions on mounting, grounding and bonding.

 

[Slowpoke]

Any picture of the setup?

Else we don't know what you used for mounting - vehicle - location...

Need to buy a Vowel here...

View attachment 57649​

Any picture of the setup?

Else we don't know what you used for mounting - vehicle - location...

Need to buy a Vowel here...

View attachment 57649​

 

[Handy Andy]

Now with knowing more, the problems with mounts and ground are a bit more clear - thank you.

Now, where to start?

Firstly - I'll start with the "Microphone Noise" - might be a better start.

The seats themselves many are air pneumatic, and most being modernized with some of the latest and greatest, your cabin noise and your mic's proximity to it, and the radios own limiter (enabled or disabled) might have more influence that the cabins' own noise generating equipment.

So, to me the radio if the limiter has been worked on - gives the radio the ability to become the antenna nobody really wanted.

For you to put down on mic versus another and actually hear the noise level change - reveals the shielding of both the radio - and microphone - and the lack of control between the two to tame it.

​

Tr42, Tr32 or TR39 or any limiter in any radio - period - makes those radios the subjects of boundless ridicule and endless debates because of the condition the operator is put in, and the radio asked to perform as, don't always make the best pair Ginger Rogers or Fred Astaire - Why? Because the microphones used in every stage screen or play - has to be properly shielded or you'll have the biggest mess and loudest laughter from the audience - they'll skewer the equipment and mock the feature and the critics will have roughage for healthy on-goings for years to come.

The mountings - are well, sad, just sad. I cannot believe they put you in a position like this. IF you went in trying to find a Ford in the lot- they took a can of paint to a Yugo and there you go.

I know you're trying to find the better, workable spot that are both acceptance and esoteric for those involved - which may include a boss if you're a slip seater situation.

Wow, I just can't fathom they won't let you mount the antenna where it really should be. Using a swing arm used for tight parking is an invitation to noise and poor RF grounding - period. They are breakaways, not meant for bonding - true grounds or are even properly bonded - they are supposed to fall off when struck.

About the RF signal going out and in - for in essence the issues around your signal - may arise from below - as in; in the cab.

This is a disaster - you can't get blood out of a turnip, and you cannot use coax as the pipeline to put the signal out there and apply grounding to the mount metal and use it as an antenna as the same time - there's not enough - this setup needs help.

You using one of these?

Why are you not using the OEM one?




It's just irritating that KW being the reputation that it is, has to make every effort tried by you - make it look like a pincushion or a porcupine on steroids.

There's gott 'a be a way...

 

[Slowpoke]

Now with knowing more, the problems with mounts and ground are a bit more clear - thank you.

Now, where to start?

Firstly - I'll start with the "Microphone Noise" - might be a better start.

The seats themselves many are air pneumatic, and most being modernized with some of the latest and greatest, your cabin noise and your mic's proximity to it, and the radios own limiter (enabled or disabled) might have more influence that the cabins' own noise generating equipment.

So, to me the radio if the limiter has been worked on - gives the radio the ability to become the antenna nobody really wanted.

For you to put down on mic versus another and actually hear the noise level change - reveals the shielding of both the radio - and microphone - and the lack of control between the two to tame it.

View attachment 57659​

Tr42, Tr32 or TR39 or any limiter in any radio - period - makes those radios the subjects of boundless ridicule and endless debates because of the condition the operator is put in, and the radio asked to perform as, don't always make the best pair Ginger Rogers or Fred Astaire - Why? Because the microphones used in every stage screen or play - has to be properly shielded or you'll have the biggest mess and loudest laughter from the audience - they'll skewer the equipment and mock the feature and the critics will have roughage for healthy on-goings for years to come.

The mountings - are well, sad, just sad. I cannot believe they put you in a position like this. IF you went in trying to find a Ford in the lot- they took a can of paint to a Yugo and there you go.

I know you're trying to find the better, workable spot that are both acceptance and esoteric for those involved - which may include a boss if you're a slip seater situation.

Wow, I just can't fathom they won't let you mount the antenna where it really should be. Using a swing arm used for tight parking is an invitation to noise and poor RF grounding - period. They are breakaways, not meant for bonding - true grounds or are even properly bonded - they are supposed to fall off when struck.

About the RF signal going out and in - for in essence the issues around your signal - may arise from below - as in; in the cab.

This is a disaster - you can't get blood out of a turnip, and you cannot use coax as the pipeline to put the signal out there and apply grounding to the mount metal and use it as an antenna as the same time - there's not enough - this setup needs help.

You using one of these?
View attachment 57660
Why are you not using the OEM one?
View attachment 57661
View attachment 57662
View attachment 57663

It's just irritating that KW being the reputation that it is, has to make every effort tried by you - make it look like a pincushion or a porcupine on steroids.

There's gott 'a be a way...

Well, the original is of course now garbage, and probably couldn't handle 500-600 watts anyway. The only other mounts offered for the T680, like the Cascadia, tilt the antennas forward. I don't care for that. These mounts keep them upright. The only other spot was in one of the photos, if they went through, as I sent four. It's on a mount bolted to the spot mirror area above the passenger door window. Thats where I tried the Procomm quad. The ears not great compared to the cophased w2ks, but I did get out, skip anyway, as the crow flies, over 2k miles. I did just spend the past hour and a half checking the ground I ran from both mounts. Bad spot. I re ran them, and to spots, sanded down to metal, dialectic grease, and the static issue with the mic went away, so thank you for that info. I did hear that grounding the radio helps as well, so trying that next. I will re run the grounds with hood ground strap, or stranded 10g when I'm back home. Using thinner stranded wire now. I have the ground up the mirror arms, connected underneath the new mounts, also all sanded to bare metal, with the DG applied. I'll check out the info you sent me on that site. My radio, a bit beefy won't fit in cubby and needs air flow, so it's mounted between the seats. when I find good cophase coax, I'll try it. I bought the Wilson, but the swrs went to 1.1 across all frequencies like the Skip Shooter did. My single W2k dropped to 1.3 1/1.5 40/1.3 20. Thank you much for the interest and info. It's appreciated!

 

[Slowpoke]

Also, the limiter was not clipped or over done, in any of my radios. I don't do that. Just a peak, tune, frequency clarify, and leave it. I don't mind sacrificing watts for clarity. I was just talking to someone in this truck stop, full open, about 5-6 hundred watts, and was told no splatter, clear, no bleed over, which is the way it should be. No snip and clip on my radios. If I lose a potential 100-150 watts, but it's clean, I'm good. Now to get my transmit frequency tweak a little on sb, as it's off just a smidgen.

 

[Handy Andy]

Thank you - you may not realize this but in many repairs - the defeating of the limiter has been attempted by those with greater skills and many of lesser skills - either way - the noise presence comes as a detriment. The limiter engages in RX to keep the Audio line muted, so the Mic amp doesn't inject noises in shared lines to the system.

Then the "Noise factor" is from the mic cords and how the radios are mounted, there can be other methods but whether they take out (Reduction of) more noise - the issue I see in this, is the antennas, like the Skip Shooter - because of their design - work as well as they do for they are made for this purpose of running vertical and limited height - but not as much hinderance as a lossy coil loading as most short antennas demonstrate in their own coil winds.

There are fewer options with mics, especially the amplified ones, for they oftentimes use or keep the battery in circuit as an open loop - so the case and wires in the cord add a level of extraneous noise pickup that Realistic knew - and shorted the Audio Mic line to ground at the handset in their 5-wire systems - but only for their wiring and pinouts - no one else's.

It's not uncommon to hear stories of "My microphone squeals when I put it over here right next to (insert noisy fan or device here) and doesn't when that is off. So, I know it's picking up noise from there..." This is more common than many realize and even simpler setups in cars are arriving to the same conclusions.

So, what is a guy to do? Better grounds? I wish...ain't gonna happen in the cab, you'd be lucky if you can even keep aluminum foil on board, let alone use it.

Best to leave the limiter in and then defeat the AMC and ALC sides or reduce their punch as much as possible - for the RX side engages the limiter pretty hard to keep out noise - you can try this yourself - and I've proven it to others in similar situations - take it out - it's deafening you, leave it in, it might make the trips far more enjoyable...So if you have friends with similar situations - ask them about the limiter.

You may be stuck using SkipShooter even though the SWR is great the loading and interactions are making the performance the best is somewhat limited - by your standards. The height of the loading above the cab is your benefit in this. The loading and interaction with the cab is less - but your focus on the performance - leaves you to use more of a competitor's design - being the Pro-Comm and it's winding structure.

The choice is yours.

 

[Slowpoke]

The Skip Shooter, for whatever reason is showing a 1.1 swr across all frequencies. Something I read indicated an issue somewhere. It's the only one that dies that. So, either there is an issue, or the lack of needle movement means it's a perfect antenna? My radio has a high swr protection circuit, but I don't wish to tax it, if a 1.1 is showing, but a dangerously high swr is the background reality. Don't need the cb genie appearing from the finals. Been there, done that in the past. So, grounding the mount, which "cb techs" suggest, and did cut out the mic static noise when handling, isn't a good idea? I tried section grounding down to the frame, but it had little effect. The lowest the original tech could get my SWRs, with the original coax and mount setup, with the W2ks, was 1.3 ish. That was with a Cobra 29, and a much smaller ranger, and several years ago, when I first bought the truck. That coax is now removed, as it was throwing an antenna warning. I removed it to run new coax, but as I said, my new radio won't fit in the cubby, so position changed. I'll keep tweaking it. Maybe I'll get it set right.

 

[Slowpoke]

I

A KW T680. PC QW passenger door above window mirror mount, where I also tried Hustler and FS2. W2Ks with 18" shafts, single and cophased on ProComm T680 mirror mount replacements, and a single SS. Singles on Driver side. That'll give you a mental visual idea, lol, til I snap a few photos. Also, Single 18' Mini8 with Amphenol connections. Wilson mini8 75ohm cophase harness. The Passenger side door mirror is a higher position, with the taller PC QW getting up above the cab, just a few inches shy of 13'6".

Grounded the mount, and the static stopped, when handling the mic. SwRs still not great. Lousy truck design.

 

[Handy Andy]

If you're referring to "Resonance versus SWR"

Best to focus on what would violate the radios / equipment warranty - as in; "what they won't fix - until you pay for it."

Blown finals in a radio from a poor SWR will cost you time, money and wasted effort...

Radio looks - sees SWR - so if you have a High SWR - Resonance is not going to matter to the radio - SWR does.

Resonance is trying to make the antenna look like it's at the proper frequency it's supposed to be for (1/4 wavelength for example) so SWR SHOULD (not always a guarantee) be low enough to operate the radio safely (again a point of view, not always the case).

So, if your antenna has a low SWR - great - fantastic!

But! Is it a keeper - a performer? Well, any radio check will give you something to work with and you can then deduce from those reports a road map of where that antenna sends and receive its signals from.

But Resonant? Might want to check the SWR - and OFTEN - pay attention to the SWR light if it's got one. You run an amp with it - things get expensive for repairs - treat it right - and your investment won't be hard on you.

Your Lowest SWR is the Skipshooters - but you seem to think they're "Deaf" - again, an interpretation by your needs to hear something out there...

Be sure you're not just thinking you are NOT hearing all that you think you should be hearing. You could be getting fooled by their performance - like a quiet expensive car versus a cheap one - you know it's cheap from the way it works and what you hear and feel - the pattern on a good co-phased system is highly directional - so you may hear less, but it performs more - in the directions of where you hear from.

Antennas are reciprocal - they put out like what they take in.

So, you're on the right track of thought, just don't get sideswiped or de-railed chasing after ghosts.

Fixing the ground conquered the Mic shield to Ground and the Noise issue from that mess - keep going - you're on a roll...

 

[Slowpoke]

Yes, I had a shop use the actual good meter to check my coax, and swr today, as I'm now trying a P10k. It showed 1.18. Don't know if I trust that fully, but my radio swr meter only read about 1.2-1.3, so, it's ok. An expensive antenna, and not sure if it's worth it, but if it ends up being about the same as the others, a friend of mine will buy it, as he has a hard on for those, but doesn't want to pay s&h charges to get one. So, I'll test it. Already sold my other antennas at a truck stop, so recouped some. Kept one for back up.
They suggested, even though they sold the same mounts, that a design flaw in their opinion, would warrant using an aluminum or steel wedge instead of the rubber one, and to sand off the top of the mirror arm bracket, remove the ground from the mount to the frame, and just run a ground, after sanding surfaces, and using dialectic grease, from the mirror arm to the body. So, that's next, and I'm done. Period. Enough experimenting, and sticking with the single antenna setup, if the P10k works as well as claimed.