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Need some help

And just so everyone else who happens to read this thread knows, yes, I agree that it is best to have the right test equipment to check your work when adjusting a radio, but it can and is done without an oscope/spectrum analyzer/ or frequency counter etc... on many occasions if you know what you are doing. Want to know if you are over modulating? Have a friend sit close by and listen while you do it. Want to know if you are not staying on frequency? Have them check above and below for bleed over. I mean come on, if an oscope is the only way to do it right, then how many people who have tuned a radio and did a good job without one "didn't know what they were doing?" Making mistakes has side effects which are detectable in the finished product (your audio on the other end) When you get reports of distorted audio, that's when you go find an oscope if you don't have one to see what's going on, and when you hear that you are bleeding over, that's when you hook up a spectrum analyzer to see what the signal is doing.

What I did was simple. I went online, found out which pot was the modulation pot, bought a powermic because it had echo and talkback built in, and started adjusting them both together while I had a friend sitting close by listening and giving me feedback. When the audio started to distort, I backed it down until it was good, clean, and crisp on the other end, and then I took it to 2 respectable cb shops and had them verify my work for peace of mind, and yes I watched while they tested. After multiple contacts at a multitude of ranges, all I have heard is how good this little compact radio sounds.

If you have oscopes and spectrum analyzers sitting on the shelf, then great, use them, but don't tell someone else that their work is junk because they didn't use one, and especially not before you've had a chance to hear it for yourself.



I have to disagree on a point or two. Having a friend listen to you for distortion does not work well. You cannot hear 105% modulation very well at all especially on a cb radio speaker however it will splatter some. As for staying on freq. you are at the mercy of the quality of tuning that HIS radio has had. Yes you can rough in by ear but to be sure takes the proper gear. Been there done that both ways before.
 
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Robb, I believe you are talking about the typical CB type modulation meter? In that caze I agree however there are indeed mod meters that are very accurate. I have one. It ia a Wavetek 4101and measures AM and FM mod to 100% and up to 100 khz deviation. It is lab quality and admittedly not what most would have in the shack however it is a mod meter that is indeed accurate. They are out there and will read mod levels as good as a scope. Just forget the Dosy test center type meters.

A meter can show 100% modulation and not show flat tops and pinched carriers, how could it?
 
Thanks Robb! I was looking for the exit hole on that radio in the video and that's one ugly sawtooth pattern. I saw that video several months back so thanks on reminding me again. And yes,I wish I had an O-Scope but for now,...
I do have a reference point though for 100% modulation with my voice while I'm tinkering on my test subjects(test cb radios). I made observations on the DTB tuned radios I have and use that as a reference point. I did adjust the modulation for a fellow CB'er in which his radio that was a few model years newer than mine was only doing 60% modulation and sounded like he was talking through a plastic milk cup. He had a falling out with his 'self appointed' techie(hack job king). I volunteered to help him and set his radio's modulation. It's not perfect but he's happy.

I appreciate it when my fellow forum members and administrators step in and correct me when I suggest to another how I do something or try to help someone but don't have a clear educated picture of the answer.


Hopefully,one of my test subjects will be going back to DTB for a freshening up(tune). :D
 

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All this talk of modulation is nice, however, I doubt it is the cause of the op's issue.

Antennas are dumb, they try and transmit whatever signal they get. The only way I can see modulation being related to the ops original post is if it is causing out of band emissions, and the one antenna that is having the issue is more sensitive to and rejecting more of these out of band signals. I'm not saying it is impossible, but I don't think it's the likely cause here either.

How are you determining that there is less output when this one antenna is hooked up?

Have you tried another radio with the same antennas on the same mount? I'm assuming you are using the same mount for the antennas, is this correct?

Is there anything else in line other than the SWR meter?

What kind of coax is being used, RG-58? And how are the ends connected, soldered with amphenol connectors or crimped?

Aside from swapping out the antennas have you done any troubleshooting steps as of yet?


The DB
 
Now I know that modern radios cut back their power if there is not a good antenna match,

Since we're headed back on topic, I'd like to know what you are seeing that makes you feel like your radio is pulling back power into a bad match?
 
I agree with you Captain, you will never be able to do as good of a job without the gear as with it, and that is why I went for cleanest heard audio over strongest signal (playing it safe knowing I couldn't be that accurate going off of just audio) but that is not at all what MOGVZ was accusing me of. He said that I didn't know what I was doing, implied that I jacked both the radio's modulation pot and the powermic's output up to max, and was swinging a signal that no one could understand. And all of this before even asking 1 question. Who does that? It was a bonehead move based on an immature assumption in an attempt to make himself look good by making me look bad. I'm sorry, but I don't take kindly to people who go out of their way to do stuff like that, which is exactly what he did. Like DB said, my post was about an antenna issue, not modulation, and I have talked to way too many people who said that I was sounding great for me to be doing what MOGVZ said I was doing. I think I'll be believing someone who can actually hear me and give me some feedback before I'll be taking his advice.

DB, forgive me but I do not know how to insert quotes from previous posts yet (feel free to show me if you have the time)

I'm determining output power by the radios signal strength meter. Not a spectrum analyzer, I know, but prior experience coupled with receiving station comparisons (radio showing transmitting full power vs. showing transmitting reduced power and receiving station collaborating data) says that it is a useful "guide" A couple of post ago I reported that this radio is picky about it's antennas, meaning that it starts cutting back transmitted power (at least it does on the signal strength meter) at anything above a 1.3:1 swr. I placed the meter and an 18" mini 8 jumper inline to check swr, and then took them back out. When I tuned the wilson and the firestik, the radio showed I was transmitting full power on the signal strength meter, but with the everhardt, lowest swr on the meter did not correspond to full power transmitted. I had to extend the whip 1 and 1/4" to get there. I was confused about this, so I marked both places on the whip and the next day ran a test with a receiving station to see which position was better. It was the position that allowed the radio to transmit full power by alot.

Yes, same everything except antenna

Yes, I have tried a different radio, same results

No, nothing else inline. Just the meter and the 18" jumper

Mini 8 coax, 18' run with soldered ends between radio and antenna except when meter is inline. Jumper is mini 8 with soldered ends also.

Yes, I have swapped antennas, swapped radios, took FS measurements, and performed tests with receiving stations. Everything points to the meter not tuning/reporting the antenna correctly. With the wilson silverload and the Firestik ll, lowest swr = strongest radiated signal, but with the everhardt sott, nope. Strongest radiated signal was with the whip extended 1.25" longer than lowest swr position.

I have never encountered this before and thought I would ask about it. The only thing I can figure is the everhardt is a 1 1/2 wave antenna and both the Wilson and the Firestik are 5/8 wave. I know it shouldn't matter, but this time it did. It's not a problem though, I tuned the everhardt too, I just could not use the swr meter to do it. I used the signal strength meter on the radio and it worked, as verified by a receiving station.
 
359, I can see it on the radio's signal strength meter. With the little wil, silverload, and firestik, anything above a 1.3:1 swr and the radio will not dead key the full meter. It will modulate it if the swr isn't too bad, but not dead key. The higher the mismatch, the less the meter will show transmitting. Unconventional, I know, but FS measurements and receiving stations collaborate. Again, it is just an indicator.
 
Hmm interesting, everything seems to be in order... I'm not sure what the cause of your problem is...

A couple of post ago I reported that this radio is picky about it's antennas, meaning that it starts cutting back transmitted power (at least it does on the signal strength meter) at anything above a 1.3:1 swr.

1.3 to 1 SWR trips the circuit? That seems awfully low... Unless your really pushing the limits having such a circuit set to 2 to 1 is more than adequate. Some people in the CB world thing things like "2:1 SWR is way to high, you need to get it lower", but unless your running the radio or amplifier out of specifications it is fine. And, you and those you talk to won't notice the difference between a 1:1 and a 2:1 or even a 3:1 SWR.

DB, forgive me but I do not know how to insert quotes from previous posts yet (feel free to show me if you have the time)

Quotes aren't that hard, you use the Quote button to reply with then manipulate the quote tags... Perhaps you just have to play with the forum software some. You'll get it I'm sure...

Yes, I have swapped antennas, swapped radios, took FS measurements, and performed tests with receiving stations.

Field strength measurements? I like it. You can learn a lot from a field strength meter, such as this:

but with the everhardt sott, nope. Strongest radiated signal was with the whip extended 1.25" longer than lowest swr position.

I have never encountered this before and thought I would ask about it.

The first thing to learn about tuning antennas, once you have learned SWR basics, is where you have the lowest SWR is not necessarily where you will have the strongest field strength.

That was probably an odd sounding statement, it is certainly not what many people expect when tuning an antenna with only an SWR meter, but it is true. SWR tells you one and only one thing, how well the antenna is matched to the feedline. It tells you absolutely nothing else about what the antenna is doing with that power, for that you are using a field strength meter. What the strongest field strength is doing is showing you were the resonant point of the antenna is (or at least getting you close). This is getting off topic I think so I'll stop here unless you want to know more...

...

Someone actually has a field strength meter in this day and age... Wow, I thought they went out of fashion decade ago. They aren't that expensive, and you can learn and do so much more with both an SWR meter and a field strength meter than simply an SWR meter...


The DB
 
A meter can show 100% modulation and not show flat tops and pinched carriers, how could it?


No meter can show flat topping and pinched carriers but then again I never said they could. Any modulation over 100% negative peak will cause distortion and pinched carriers therefore if the meter indicates more than 100% negative peak mod there IS distortion. Then again you could get a distortion analyzer and read the THD directly on it's meter. The HP 334A is a nice one on the used market. I used to use one at work. Wish I had one of my own.

AGILENT-HP_334A.JPG
 
Captain, I wish I had some good test equipment like you have described, but i have to make do with what I have and try to fill in the blanks with the RF theory that I know (thank you internet and US Navy)

DB, I know that a 1.3:1 seems like a tight tolerance before cutting back power, but the Midland 1001lwx, or at least the one that I have, seems to act as such. I had a 1001z earlier that seemed a little more forgiving, but not too much. It started cutting back at around 1.5:1 swr. I don't entirely know why, other than not having a good match causing more reflected power, but I did notice that every time the meter read higher than a 1.5:1 swr, it would not light all of the led's while transmitting. I just figured that if the signal strength meter could tell me how many watts I was receiving, it could also indicate how many watts I was transmitting, at least until it maxed out. And all of the tests that I ran indicated that the better the antenna match (swr) the more the signal strength meter would indicate while transmitting.

I know that this is a crude way of doing it, but like I said, I only consider it an indicator of antenna match. If the radio is showing full strength while transmitting, I know I'm in the ball park, but further testing is required for optimal performance. I've actually tuned an antenna like this (the everhardt, which is a 3' antenna) and have had reports that it sounded better than the 5' wilson silverload, which was tuned for best performance using traditional methods.

Figuring all of this out, knowing what I know, has been challenging, but fun. I have an extensive electrical and RF propagation background, which has helped tremendously, and I enjoy building and testing antennas and arrays. If you read the wilson 1000 base antenna thread, you will see that I have built a ground mounted vertical (102" ss whip with 32 radials 108" long) and was quite pleased with it's performace. I studies N6Lf's QEX experiments with ground planes before building it and found that my results were in line with his, which means that this stuff is repeatable. I have the pdf's from his reports if you want them. It would make a good afternoon read.
 

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