New antenna from Sirio Gain-Master

[CDX-007]

Booty, you might want to edit that to show the top pic to be an Enforcer, and I expect there is a shunt coil to ground inside the base of the Tornado?

Reminds me of an old Avanti Sigma 5/8 with a 6.5-turn ~3" coil instead of a single turn 16" coil.

 

[jazzsinger]

and I expect there is a shunt coil to ground inside the base of the Tornado?

i would expect so, seeing as there is no dc resistance to ground from the main coil if i recall from when i took continuity readings from mine for bob85.

but i'm f@cked if i'm pulling it apart just to satisfy bob's curiosity,lol.especially now they cost 20 odd quid more than when i bought it.

 

[CDX-007]

i would expect so, seeing as there is no dc resistance to ground from the main coil if i recall from when i took continuity readings from mine for bob85.

but i'm f@cked if i'm pulling it apart just to satisfy bob's curiosity,lol.especially now they cost 20 odd quid more than when i bought it.

Awe, come on, just a little hammering & chiseling couldn't hurt...

Isn't it odd that the mr coily finds it's feed point above coil center, when all others seem to find it closer to ground. With so much obvious knowledge emanating from those coils, makes one wonder about true reactance.

 

[Shockwave]

Really, is that what you think? Well, I think you like making things up, maybe just to bait me.

Not sure if it was bait or not but it sure got you to bite.

- Oh but I did get your slam of the .64, as if it doesn't work, or is inferior to the 5/8, or perhaps you meant that over ½ of a foot in length just doesn't matter... Uh huh. Sure. You bet. Yet you stress Sirio having gotten exactly the perfect placement in inches for the utmost in radiating excellence... Where are my boots@!

My slam of the .64 wave comes from the fact it's only sold to CBers. Most manufacturers understand that the typical 5/8 wave has little or no ability to be tuned at any point other then having the radiator equal 5/8 wave electrically. The physical measurement is subsequent. I stress Sirio has gotten their measurements better then most because it's obvious to those who work with antennas that this company has invested way more time and money to do just that.

Actually I'm a little surprised you don't already have this knowledge of the fact of the elevated radials nullifying some of the highest inverse current bloom through downward redirection, you being an antenna designer and all...
-But in essence you're correct, even if you don't realize it.

Actually I'm quite surprised you don't understand that the radials define the point at which the radiator begins and therefore does nothing to eliminate the out of phase lower 1/8 wave. If you think your theory is right, why not just move those radials 1/8 wave up the radiator and improve it some more. The reason is it's not what the designer intended at all and it doesn't work like that.

There is, in a sense, "no antenna action taking place here" because Hy-gain designed the bottom of the 1/8λ inverse current part of the radiator in such a way it doesn't radiate detrimentally to the upper ½λ of the .64λ radiator, and it's at the bottom of the radiator where the inverse current is highest. - And there is no "Rather than" about it, it's both.

Hi-Gain designed the bottom bracket part of the antenna so that it's not considered part of the radiator. The electrical 1/8 wave above the radials is still out of phase as it is in any other 5/8 wave ground plane. Sirio designed the GM so that the bottom 1/8 wave does not radiate detrimentally to the top 1/2 wave. Hi-Gain didn't even consider the idea much less accomplish the task.

So, once again you misrepresent my posts to imply that I stated or implied something I have not. Your arguments appear to be continuously based on both conjecture and misinformation via misrepresentation.

Never have I stated that a "MOUNTING BRACKET" could improve performance.

Now your just being silly, Donald.

However, ingeniously mounting radials in such a manner so as to provide an elevated ground plane above the highest inverse current of the radiator bottom, splitting off the inverse current while ALSO adding strength to the design, was what put Hy-gain at the top of the antenna designers.

If the "top" is one db less then the maximum gain antenna can provide on the distant horizon you would be right. There is nothing clever about the radials on the Penetrator. It's the standard mounting bracket used on dozens of antennas that used weak insulators in the base. Sell this nonsense to Jay and make him think he can elevate his radials and get rid of that problemed 1/8 wave of radiation.

There is nothing about using this type of construction which precludes the lower part of the radiating radiator from radiating, that's truly one of the silliest things I've read so far. It's simply nullified by the radials.

There is no 'mutual exclusivity' in either utilizing a strong radial bracket or radiating the entire length of the radiating radiator. The two coexist quite effectively, and evidently without your understanding how.

The Hy-gain CLR-2 and Silver Rod radial mounting brackets are also designed in such a manner and happen to sport the same length radiators as all other loaded, shortened 5/8λ, and other ½λ antennas, respectively.

This new 'non-radiating-radiator' theory of yours is as flawed as is your imagining & proffering such silliness as your 'theory' that

four ½" pieces of Vector basket/cone radial tubing

in an average circumference of 48"

providing less than 5% shield coverage

can somehow, miraculously, mysteriously, amazingly,

provide 100% shielding of the inner radiator while supposedly not utilizing any radiating current to cancel the inverse current of the bottom inner ¼λ of the Vector/Sigma/LW-150 design.

Anyone want some new Shockwave brand 5% shield Vector style coax?

- Just kidding of course...

I threw away a like-new 75' length of 90% shield coax years ago because it leaked enough to bother the neighborhood with RFI.

I replaced it with 100% shield LMR400 and problem solved.

- I can imagine how well the coax would radiate, even with it's "coaxial transmission line function", at a whopping 5% shield coverage...

Thank you for those two real good laughs! - Keep up the fantasizing, it's becoming quite amusing.

This tells me you need to learn more about wavelength and how large the gaps in shielding can actually be at 27 MHz while still providing adequate shielding. Stop thinking it's just a piece of coax feeding a 1/2 wave that lets 95% of the out of phase radiation through. I know you love to ignore those bright red and blue in phase individual 1/4 wave radial currents. Yes they are less then the upper 1/2 wave. They shouldn't be anymore then 25% or even less since it's a 1/4 wave current divided by four. You see it clear as day but will continue to ignore those who know this antenna.

One might think if you really have an interest in learning about antennas you would shy away from all of the misinformation that surrounds only CB antennas. Things like .64 wave, elevated radials with respect to the radiator and not the ground, or that horizontal radials on the 5/8 wave can be placed in a manner that cancels the bottom 1/8 wave. You can find tons of information on these topics but ONLY on 11 meters. No reputable manufacturer would ever package this crap up and market it to consumers that were educated in antenna design.

 

[jazzsinger]

This tells me you need to learn more about wavelength and how large the gaps in shielding can actually be at 27 MHz while still providing adequate shielding.

which is exactly how a farady cage provides adequate shielding despite having gaps all over it.as long as the gaps are smaller than the wavelength they look like solid metal,

much the same way as a quad whip with all wires/whips the same length looks exactly like one broader radiator of the same diameter to the spacing between the whips to rf.

another example would be to broadband a dipole by having 4 spaced wires of equal lengths on either side joined together. it will just look like a single dipole with a larger diameter to rf.

 

[Shockwave]

This also explains why at over 2000 MHz your microwave has such small holes in the metal window screen. Some guys are never going to understand RF or antenna design and that's OK with me. To those who want to learn, the good news is this site has people who know what they are talking about and eager to learn more. This will eventually separate BS from fact.

I also want to point out to CDX that it wasn't me who said there is no cancellation in the bottom of the Vector. It was the engineer at Sirio who explained this effect had more to do with shielding then the cancellation you would find with two parallel conductors. If it's OK with you, I'll take his education and word for it over yours. Nevermind the fact the model indicates in phase radiation close to 25% of the upper 1/2 wave is taking place outside the cone on each radial.

 

[jazzsinger]

This also explains why at over 2000 MHz your microwave has such small holes in the metal window screen.

at 2000 mhz the wavelength is approx 15 cm, so those holes are tiny by comparison to the rf wavelength being contained by the shield with tiny holes.

advantages of using a shield with holes in it are obvious, less material to construct makes it cheaper (unless ofcourse governments start taxing air), less weight in many applications, especially if its just as effective as solid material at shielding.

on the other hand you have radiation with a higher frequency/shorter wavelength which require lead to shield them as the wavelengths are so small that only the density of lead particles gives shielding.

 

[HomerBB]

why not just move those radials 1/8 wave up the radiator and improve it some more.

I'm curious. Are you, Shockwave, and 007 on the same page here? You seem to be talking about where the radials are connected to the vertical radiator, and 007 seems to be talking about an upward from absolute horizontal, or 90° from the vertical.

Have I read one of you wrong. Someone help me with this minor point, please.

 

[MrSuburban]

kale and mr coily are not the same person .

sheeezzz .... I know that I was being facitous they act exactly the same.
Didnt you post a picture of am power when I mentioned kale and dan

Both claimed to have read the ARRL book neither understands it.

Kale= 10k
Dan = Mr coily

 

[Shockwave]

I'm curious. Are you, Shockwave, and 007 on the same page here? You seem to be talking about where the radials are connected to the vertical radiator, and 007 seems to be talking about an upward from absolute horizontal, or 90° from the vertical.

Have I read one of you wrong. Someone help me with this minor point, please.

I'm pretty sure me and CDX are not on the same page. Unfortunately I am fairly certain we are talking about the same 1/4 wave 90 degree angled radials on a 5/8 wave. Although we have referred to the Vector and GM at times in this post. He seems to think moving the radial bracket up higher on the radiator will cancel the out of phase radiation in the lower 1/8 wave of the 5/8 wave without an upward flare of the radials. I say the only reason the radials are a little higher on the Penetrator is so the mast and radial bracket can support that weak insulator in the base. It does squat for gain or TOA.

 

[jazzsinger]

sheeezzz .... I know that I was being facitous they act exactly the same.
Both claimed to have read the ARRL book neither understands it.

Kale= 10k
Dan = Mr coily

i can't believe you were being facetious, so out of character MR Suburban,

 

[okiebob]

FedEx dropped off my new Gain Master antenna today.
It was around 4 pm, I knew it would be to dark to get it up on the mast but I decided to go ahead and assemble the antenna for tomorrow.
I open the box and the first thing I looked at was the top of the bottom section.
I wanted to see how bad the coax was kinked, it wasn't to bad, a little squeeze with the pliers reformed it pretty good.

I hate the fact that this gets deformed and kinked, the antenna bottom section is 75.750" and the box is 76"not much space for extra packing.

Looking at the inside ends of the box you can see the impact bruise where the coax was.

The other end of the box where the base of the bottom section was looked pretty bad also.

If they would just enlarge the width of the groove in the bottom section, I believe it would solve the problem.
It would allow them to roll the coax out into the groove and keep it from taking the impact.

Anyway I got it together and if I don't get rained out I'll have it up and running tomorrow.
Yeeehaaa.

 

[CDX-007]

Not sure if it was bait or not but it sure got you to bite.



My slam of the .64 wave comes from the fact it's only sold to CBers. Most manufacturers understand that the typical 5/8 wave has little or no ability to be tuned at any point other then having the radiator equal 5/8 wave electrically. The physical measurement is subsequent. I stress Sirio has gotten their measurements better then most because it's obvious to those who work with antennas that this company has invested way more time and money to do just that.



Actually I'm quite surprised you don't understand that the radials define the point at which the radiator begins and therefore does nothing to eliminate the out of phase lower 1/8 wave. If you think your theory is right, why not just move those radials 1/8 wave up the radiator and improve it some more. The reason is it's not what the designer intended at all and it doesn't work like that.



Hi-Gain designed the bottom bracket part of the antenna so that it's not considered part of the radiator. The electrical 1/8 wave above the radials is still out of phase as it is in any other 5/8 wave ground plane. Sirio designed the GM so that the bottom 1/8 wave does not radiate detrimentally to the top 1/2 wave. Hi-Gain didn't even consider the idea much less accomplish the task.



If the "top" is one db less then the maximum gain antenna can provide on the distant horizon you would be right. There is nothing clever about the radials on the Penetrator. It's the standard mounting bracket used on dozens of antennas that used weak insulators in the base. Sell this nonsense to Jay and make him think he can elevate his radials and get rid of that problemed 1/8 wave of radiation.




This tells me you need to learn more about wavelength and how large the gaps in shielding can actually be at 27 MHz while still providing adequate shielding. Stop thinking it's just a piece of coax feeding a 1/2 wave that lets 95% of the out of phase radiation through. I know you love to ignore those bright red and blue in phase individual 1/4 wave radial currents. Yes they are less then the upper 1/2 wave. They shouldn't be anymore then 25% or even less since it's a 1/4 wave current divided by four. You see it clear as day but will continue to ignore those who know this antenna.

One might think if you really have an interest in learning about antennas you would shy away from all of the misinformation that surrounds only CB antennas. Things like .64 wave, elevated radials with respect to the radiator and not the ground, or that horizontal radials on the 5/8 wave can be placed in a manner that cancels the bottom 1/8 wave. You can find tons of information on these topics but ONLY on 11 meters. No reputable manufacturer would ever package this crap up and market it to consumers that were educated in antenna design.

OK, so you've got your theories and I've got mine, so let's just lay this to rest once and for all...

SHOW


US


THE


FULL


VECTOR


CST


MODEL

 

[CDX-007]

FedEx dropped off my new Gain Master antenna today.
It was around 4 pm, I knew it would be to dark to get it up on the mast but I decided to go ahead and assemble the antenna for tomorrow.
I open the box and the first thing I looked at was the top of the bottom section.
I wanted to see how bad the coax was kinked, it wasn't to bad, a little squeeze with the pliers reformed it pretty good.

I hate the fact that this gets deformed and kinked, the antenna bottom section is 75.750" and the box is 76"not much space for extra packing.

Looking at the inside ends of the box you can see the impact bruise where the coax was.

The other end of the box where the base of the bottom section was looked pretty bad also.

If they would just enlarge the width of the groove in the bottom section, I believe it would solve the problem.
It would allow them to roll the coax out into the groove and keep it from taking the impact.

Anyway I got it together and if I don't get rained out I'll have it up and running tomorrow.
Yeeehaaa.

Exactly like mine. :angry:

 

[K7RDN]

Upon CDX's recommendation I checked my GM tonight. My coax was fine, no crimp in it at all. Guess I am one of the lucky ones.