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No Ground

Yes Rob each installation is different. One person can claim a benefit by doing a thing and 50 others can try it say it didn't do nuttin'. MY "solid ham experience" doesn't seem to count for anything in your estimation but that affects me neither here or there. The "slight" differences you say you've heard or seen seem hardly worth the trouble, hard work and expense of digging deep holes with a post hole digger then pounding in 3 or more 5/8" x 8' ground rods and the #4 or bigger wire and copper ground buses and all that to "do it right".....and you stuff is still going to be blown to bits if you're unlucky enough to take a direct lightning strike no matter what ya got rigged up.

As to fussing at Mack. Mack deserves it and I'll thank you to stay out of it. You've heard the old saying something like... there's a world of trouble and problems but for good people to sit around do nothing about it.

So there's problems here and there and I have the guts to "complain" or make suggestions as to ways to make something better.....and you want me to shutup?? I don't think so.

And no...you can't be crowned moderator either. Too much buttkissing. Yuk. And you have to try and answer everybody's questions with all your "I'm a new ham - experience" :bdh: :sad:

:pop:

First of all, you are right for saying that an electrical strike would blow everythings to bits. No contest. I'm not saying that your Ham experience is wrong; I am saying that I have seen different to this point.

I harbor no animosities twards you or mackmobile - whatsoever.
I am not going to let someone think I am something that I am not.
That would be lying...

Second, I am the Moderator of the CB section. It is my responsibility to handle any of the posts in that section. So, unfortunately - it is my business - as far as keeping a lid on it all. I just want you guys can cease fire, so that it ends here...

That's it...
 
my base antenna is currently isolated from earth ground and mast . im planing to upgrade to all metal mast for the strength and a little more height . im still debating or whether or not to still isolate the antenna from the mast and earth ground . i always unplug my antenna from the meter (last thing inline from the radio) when its gonna get stormy since i figgure if it gets hit that the antenna is gone , i just try to stop the dammage there . id like to come up with a way to switch between isolation and ful mast and earth ground for my own comparision to see if im one of those folks that are missing something if there is a difference to be had at my 20 .

it seems like there would be some grounding effect from the coax shield connecting both the antenna and radio to the homes electrical ground throught the chassie of the radio . definately not able to help with any lightnng strike ! but maybe enough for some to not noticably benefit tx , rx or tuning wise compared to a seperate dedicate earth ground for the antenna ?? just guessing there .

good thread ;)
 
A lot of opinions.

Electrical ground and Rf ground, often confused.

I have grounded the 4:1 balun on my all band doublet, I noticed no difference in static or recieve/transmit.

It was an 8 foot copper ground rod and installed corerectly.

I did have my tower grounded, took a direct lightning strike, it burned six sets of guy wires in two, looked like they were torched with a welder, and all strands of guy cable fused together at the break.

Of course the tower and the Mosley PRO TH67B came down. Grounding did no help as a direct hit from lightning destroys basically everything. Lightning follows no rules and will strike at will where it wants to.

I have in the past grounded other towers in different installations, and eliminated or reduced TVI/RFI problems. so grounding does have it's uses.

The old adage of RF grounding may have come from olden times when transmission wires were single wires to antenas before COAX was even available, everything in the shack had to be RF grounded to keep from the MIC biting you when you transmitted. Or that old boat anchor transmitter from going into oscilitaion (correct spelling if needed I thank you in advance).

I have four different stations set up in the shack, all have 1kw or more for amplifiers, the transcievers are not cheap, I do not run a ground on any of them, nor is my antenna grounded, the towers are but not the antennas, and yes the antenna is per say some what grounded by the tower but no conductor coming from the antenna to a ground rod.

I do disconnect the transcievers and amps from electrical power as well as the coax when not in use, only safe way I know of to protect equipment.

My QTH is lightning capitol of North America.

The outside coaxs are connected to a metal pass through and that is grounded very well.

So towers grounded, YES
coax grounded, YES
Antenna grounded by a seperate ground wire.NO

Electrically the coax connected to any of the antennas will provide the ground, as it is conected to a watt/vswr meter, that is connected to an amp, that "hopefully" has a three prong cord with a ground, and that is connected to a transciever that may or may not be connected to a seperate PS that has a three prong cord with a ground.

In turn it is connected to structure electric supply which by code has a ground rod at the powerpole or at the meter on the side of the structure.


Long post but the answer to your question is

You are not missing anything as you are grounded any time you are using equipment that is properly electrically grounded.

If you are using a battery as a power source and no connection to building power then that is a different story.

Friend of mine in the swamps of GA, is all solar powered and battery, does not even have an electrical feed to his QTH, he runs a TS-50 and had to ground his all band doublet at the balun to get any type of transmit, he could recieve well but his TX was horrible, once he grounded it then the signal was readable, of course on top band only barely, probaly not at all if it was not for the salt water marsh he had his antenna strung across.
 
Some more information for thought.

No ground scenerios on all bands that have no problems working.

Mobile maritime,

US warships afloat, ran many a MARS phone patch in the Persian gulf, no earth ground.

Aviation communications, no earth ground.

Made many a MARS phone call from E2C Hawkeyes on trailing long wire antenna. trailed it behind the aircraft, tuned it up, and transmitted, heck of a signal from 11.000 feet. No earth ground.
 
Something else to give some thought about:

The NEC (National Electrical Code) outlines a baseline requirement for antenna grounding for houses. Whether you agree with grounding or not, if you have a lightning strike your antnna and a house fire ensues, your insurance company is going to give you a lot of grief if that setup did not meet the NEC. I have even been told by insurance agents that the insurance company may try to use that as an excuse to invalidate the claim altogether.

How would you like to have a burnt-up home with no insurance money to rebuild? Something to think about....
 
... edit US warships afloat, ran many a MARS phone patch in the Persian gulf, no earth ground.

Aviation communications, no earth ground...

Made many a MARS phone call from E2C Hawkeyes on trailing long wire antenna. trailed it behind the aircraft, tuned it up, and transmitted, heck of a signal from 11.000 feet. No earth ground.


oh puleeeze:headbang do you really think a steel hulled ship in (salt)water is not grounded:blink:

as far as aircraft is concerned, Electrical "grounding" does not mean that all electrical systems have to be connected to the (earth) ground. For example, a battery operated flashlight is not connected to the ground, nor is the electrical system in your car. it's called an "artificial" ground.
 
Some more information for thought.

No ground scenerios on all bands that have no problems working.

Mobile maritime,

US warships afloat, ran many a MARS phone patch in the Persian gulf, no earth ground.

I have to correct the above premise. Marine situations are using the very BEST grounding in the entire world. they are sitting in it. All correct hf marine installations use a ground plate of sintered bronze below the waterline, to which all radio grounds are attached. The military ships are steel, as are some pleasurecraft, and therefore are their own ground.( although this can be a double edged sword).

PR
 
One application that is not grounded and works ok is your mobile, car or truck, Sitting on four rubber insulators. Never grounded unless you are dragging some chains or such around with you.;)

PR
 
Special Publications | Technical Publication #80
DC Grounded Antennas - The Myth, The Legend, The Fantasy

This is a subject that we just had to write about. In the lightning protection business we come into contact with many people who have had both dangerous and disastrous experiences with Mother Nature. And one that has perplexed antenna users for decades is the very common damage and destruction to radio equipment when connected to a so-called "DC Grounded" antenna system.

For many years, antenna manufacturers have touted the positive advantages of owning and operating a station with antennas whose feed systems are a direct DC short across the input terminals, and hence both sides of the coaxial feeder cable are placed at "ground" potential at the antenna site. In reality, there are no such advantages to this kind of feed system, but it is singly the most dangerous ever used from a lightning perspective.

The reason is pretty easy to both explain and understand. Lightning bolts that streak from clouds to ground frequently hit exposed metallic structures like towers and high antennas. This is simply because the metallic nature of the object electrically shortens the striking distance between ground and sky. When a large voltage potential is reached between the two during a storm the metal antenna acts like a prod, sticking up in the air and drawing the first arc.

Lightning wants to reach ground, and that's pretty much all it wants. And it will get what it wants in the easiest and least resistive way possible. Just about anything in the way can be easily vaporized out of the way by a good sized lightning blast. If ten different paths to ground are presented to a striking bolt (such as numerous transmission line conductors, the tower frame, etc.) then the currents will divide quite nicely between all of them, with the larger amount of current flowing in the path of least resistance and so on.

"DC Grounded" type antennas provide a very neat dual path for those lightning currents. Some of the blast will flow down the shield of the cable to ground level earth terminal connections while the rest will simply flow down the center conductor and ravage the radio connected at the other end. Keep in mind that at the point of impact a bolt of lightning can easily deposit 50,000 volts or more respective to ground. And for an instant the voltage at the radio equipment end will be the same. By the time the balance of the surge comes to an end the equipment will have long since been toasted, probably beyond repair.

The myth is that "DC Grounded" antennas offer good lightning protection. The legend is that antenna manufacturers have been claiming it for decades. The fantasy is that some of them still actually believe it. But it's not all hopeless. Here's how you can tell if your present antenna is one of these and what you can do about it. Disconnect the transmission line at the equipment end and measure across the center and outer conductors with a VOM on the R X 1 scale. If only a few ohms are measured then the antenna at the other end is a DC Grounded type. If you're satisfied with the performance of the antenna otherwise and wish to continue using it then you have two choices. First, disconnect the antenna whenever a storm approaches and hope you'll always be there to do it on time. Or second, install a blocking-type lightning arrestor that will shunt center conductor voltage to ground while blocking voltage from passing through the arrestor. Be sure to install the arrestor at ground level and ground the body of the device well.

If your in the market for an antenna and wish to enjoy a bit of protection select the ones offered that use capacitor or link feed systems. Capacitor feed systems such as gamma matches are excellent feed systems and lightning protectors as well. They isolate the center conductor and force lightning into the shield.
 
"a blocking-type lightning arrestor that will shunt center conductor voltage to ground while blocking voltage from passing through the arrestor"

And where would you find such a thing?
- 'Doc
 
Thanks for that article, BootyMon.
That will certainly help grease the wheels of controversy here!

I will take issue with some of its statements.

One antenna has no more of a threat to be struck by lightning than any other antenna does.
That's right.
After being a storm chaser/spotter over the last few years; I can attest to the attributes of lightning. From personal experience - here are some important thoughts...

It is not the antenna that attracts lightning. That is a pure myth. When lighting strikes, it does so because the surface of the ground itself is becoming more intensely concentrated with an opposite charge to the fully charged clouds above. As well as taking the least path of resistance in order to discharge.

Good ol' boy story (true):
I was taking pictures of a possible tornadic storm in rural NW Iowa two years ago standing 20 ft in front of my car. There were no power poles, no 100 ft antenna towers, just me and my camera. I suddenly noticed all of the hairs on both my arms suddenly raise up for no reason at all. I was in a 'static field'. I knew that I was in a dangerous situation, so I turned and ran to my vehicle and quickly jumped inside and closed the door. A few seconds later, a bolt came down less than a hundred yards from me. Being inside a vehicle, one is relatively safe due to the "Faraday's cage effect". That is, electricity will flow around the car and go to ground. So long as I am not touching anything metal in my car; I remain relatively safe.
I've had a lightning bolt come down less than ten yards from me since that time, with two antennas on my car. Lightning strikes where the resistance to flow is minimal and where an opposite ground charge is strongest.
Not because you have a piece of metal in the air that has been grounded to the Earth...

Lightning does not always hit metal structures. Because we are often near cities and towns; that is what we see and so pass this myth on. The majority of lightning strikes that occur every year - do so in rural areas and strike where the opposite earth charge is concentrated. It could hit a tree, or in an open field, a stream, or a lake too.

Lightning should be treated as a danger - no doubt about it. Each strike can often exceed 250,000/+ amps per discharge. Often when we see a bolt - it is often comprised of several bolts in a row moving along a short distance - a "multi-discharge" event. Each of those multi-discharges carries that same amperage with it!

With so much potential electrical force, it must be abundantly apparent by now - that lightning arrestors should be treated with contempt. They offer no protection whatsoever in the face of that much amperage. Frankly, they don't stand a chance. And neither should you trust your equipment or you life by employing one. Lightning arrestors are snake oil - in the purest sense of that metaphor.
 
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Addendum...

So what if one has their antenna grounded or not; should one be concerned about lighting? Yes and no. First realize, that the surface of the Earth near your antenna must be fully charged with an opposite electrical force. Then, an antenna will become an attractive strike target if it is grounded - if the different electrical charge is great enough first.

All the more reason to have your antenna grounded. You did nothing to make the ground around your station to become charged; it is a random event that requires several thousands of amps of opposing charge below you to accomplish. You cannot stop the lightning from coming down and possibly shredding your antenna. But what you can do, is make sure that it is going to put the largest charge thru your antenna and into the ground as directly as possible. Better there than your house - which may well receive an indirect strike as well even if the antenna is grounded or not.

Read Moleculo's post earlier on this thread. You will see that diverting as much current as possible directly to ground will keep the fire danger to your home/property to a minimum makes $$$ sense. Better to lose a $150 antenna than a ~$150k house! You cannot stop the lightning; but you can help redirect it. Especially if you live in an area that gets a lot of lighting - do all that is necessary.

As far as the ability to get better receive/transmit out of grounding one's system; I have seen improvements in both from a few installations that I helped with. No guarantees for your setup; but it wouldn't hurt anything if done properly - either. But it has consistently made receive quieter from my observations - if nothing else..

Added:
http://www.qsl.net/w8wky/reference/lightning.txt
http://www.harvardrepeater.org/news/lightning.html

http://www.worldwidedx.com/cb-antennas/22166-lighting-imax.html
In particular, read Freecell's post...
 
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One thing proven to lessen the chance of lightening strikes is the use of grounded metallic objects with sharp points high up on an antenna structure.

Large commercial towers and buildings get hit many times and their communications gear keeps on working. There are ways to keep things from being damaged.

A ground rod hooked to your antenna without being bonded to the mains service ground and every other local ground is a source of very high voltage during a strike.

Lightening behaves like a 10 mhz pulse during a direct hit. 2 ground rods physically seperated by 50 feet could have 10,000 volts between them unless they were connected by a large surface area low inductance connection.


Fiberglass antennas have less chance of draining static charges caused by wind friction. Old fiberglass with the smooth coat missing might be even worse.
 

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