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Regarding antennas, what does counterpoise mean?

Marconi

Honorary Member Silent Key
Oct 23, 2005
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Houston
This new thread is hopefully done in order to continue the discussion on the meaning of the word "counterpoise," so the ideas and the conversations do not get buried within another unrelated thread...and lost as a future reference on the subject.

Here is Homer's original thread that begins this earlier discussion: http://www.worldwidedx.com/cb-antennas/144300-whole-truth-nothing-but-truth-counterpoise.html

Homer, I kind of like the idea described here: Counterpoise - what does it mean?. This topic is on the www.VK1OD.net Website, and was posted by someone on my thread "Does height above Earth effect the common mode current response?"

Some of the comments thus far are confusing and maybe even a bit simplistic, while other reports from folks like W8JI, Laport, Cebik, and others...seem far too technical for me. So, I'm persuaded for now with this idea by VK1OD.

IMO, VK1OD's idea seems like a good compromise that others in this group on WWDX might consider.
 
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As I see it there are three main areas to consider, its origins and history when referring to antennas, its definition, and its current uses.

The origins of the term are not in doubt. Any number of ARRL and Antenna Engineering books that date to the 40's and 50's and before have excellent descriptions of what a counterpoise was at the time. While all of them are somewhat different from each other, all of them (that I have access to) explain it as a network of wires that are elevated above and isolated from the earth. This allows it to act as one plate of a capacitor with the earth below it acting as the other plate. Most sources call it a capacitive ground, generally referring to a counterpoise by using the paraphrase "sometimes called a counterpoise". Another item of note is the very similar spiderweb diagrams shown for examples of the layout of the ground system. If anyone needs sources for this I am happy to quote several. I would also like to point out that several current sources also refer to a counterpoise in this way, including this wikipedia article, the current version of the ARRL Antenna Book, and the US Marine Corpse Field Antenna Handbook.

The definition of the word would be the next factor that I examine. We should decide if this definition is even relevant for Antenna Engineering as it does not fit the historical uses of the term, and originates elsewhere in engineering. In mechanical engineering, where the word originates, the term means to oppose a force with an equal and opposite force. Some sources use the term "balancing" force. Looking up multiple different web sources for the definition I get the impression (and some specifically state) that the force must be perfectly balanced, or exactly equal to the force being opposed. I can see several areas where this could apply to antennas.

Finally, its current uses are wide and varied. You can talk to any number of people about this and get just as many answers. Some are very similar, but the details tell the story. This holds true even for those knowledgeable in the field. No two peoples version of what a counterpoise is seems to exactly match any one else. Further, the best reason I seem to be able to get is "because xxx used it that way and they know what they are talking about". These people referred to are presented as well known in the field, and typically I have never heard of them. I put most responses in three categories:

1) The radial system on an antenna. For some people it must be elevated, some people include buried radials. Some people include radials that are angled down while others don't, ect. This is by far the most common group.

2) Anything connected to the shield connection on the coax. This would be the second most seen definition.

3) Everything else. This includes whatever doesn't fit the two above. For example, the video below where wires are buried in the ground underneath a horizontal antenna and attached to a coax somewhere up the feed line from the antenna is referred to as a counterpoise.
Ham Radio MARS Counter Poise Ground Saturn Dipole Antenna - YouTube

I typically can generally figure out what someone is talking about via the context of how the term is used, however, if you have one definition in your head and hear/see the term used in a another way that bears no resemblance to your own definition you may be confused. The confusion is compounded for those who are new and are simply trying to learn.

One observation I have made about all of the uses of the term "counterpoise" is that there is no use of the word that doesn't already have a more accurate and descriptive word/phrase already in use to describe what is being referred to.

The above are simply my thought processes. None of it is written in stone. Some categories may be more relevant than others to some people and less relevant to others.

I, personally, am in the traditional definition camp, After all, that is where the term when used with antennas came from. Many newer publications are now including (and others are going back to aka ARRL Antenna Books) it as their definition as well so it seems to be making a comeback.

I'm not sure about the definition that is often given as it originates in mechanical engineering. Antenna theory is part of electrical engineering. While they are both fields of engineering I am at a state of a tossup of weather the definition should still apply or be dismissed. Most people see the definition being completely contradictory to the traditional use of the term in the antenna engineering field.

Current uses I want to completely dismiss out of hand, but I don't find myself doing that. Getting X different descriptions from X different people makes me wonder who is in fact correct, if anyone really is at all. That being said, the majority of descriptions out there have similar points. These points, while not fitting in with the traditional definition of the word as it relates to antenna engineering, are non the less a common ground, and that is potentially the start of a new meaning for the word.

Thoughts?

Notes for completeness: There are five separate areas in the ARRL Antenna Book 22'nd Edition that I referred to above where the term "counterpoise" is used. If you use the index to look up "counterpoise" it will give you a page number to a page that has two sentences, a diagram, and a one or two sentence caption to the diagram and that is it. Looking through the book one day I found information in Chapter 9 that contained several paragraphs, another diagram, another caption, and a reference to more information in Chapter 3. In chapter 3 there is a whole subsection with more diagrams. Nothing in chapters 3 or 9 is listed in the index of the book, yet, they contain one of the most complete descriptions I have seen anywhere what a counterpoise is.

Two other areas in the book the term is used as part of the phrase "acts like a counterpoise". I put forth that the context is the differentiator in these cases, as acting like something is not the same as being something.


The DB
 
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Well,what I've studied so far is that an antenna(signal) needs something to push off of,namely a counter poise. The antenna is like a race car,the energy being fed it is likened into gas and the counter poise is the tires that are needed to make the whole thing move.
 
Read Maxwell's reflections. Every antenna out there tries to become a dipole whether we like it or not. The counterpoise is natures way of stealing the missing half of a dipole from the surroundings.
Simples:love:
 
Well,what I've studied so far is that an antenna(signal) needs something to push off of,namely a counter poise. The antenna is like a race car,the energy being fed it is likened into gas and the counter poise is the tires that are needed to make the whole thing move.
Jesus H Christ:eek:
 
Read Maxwell's reflections. Every antenna out there tries to become a dipole whether we like it or not. The counterpoise is natures way of stealing the missing half of a dipole from the surroundings.
Simples:love:

I have read that article, several times, thanks to it being referred to by another member of this forum. The word counterpoise does not exist in that document. As close as he gets is the phrase "ground systems" where he deals with "radials". Not using the term counterpoise is a common theme with technical documents of this level, and there is likely a very good reason for it. Unfortunately this makes nailing down what a counterpoise actually is much more difficult, which makes using any of those documents (or any document that doesn't contain the word itself) a stretch at best.

An addition to put that article in context, the dates it was written. During that time frame and a decade or two before, many books (at least that I have access to from that era) tend to put far less into descriptions on what a "counterpoise" is. For example, in the ARRL Antenna Book line we go from paragraphs of information and some diagrams to two sentences. Those two sentences are technically correct as per previous versions of their Antenna Book line, but very incomplete and open ended in comparison.

Also, there is a more accurate term that is (I believe) more widely used that describes what you are referring to, "ground plane", which is ironically also not present in said document.

Note: I am not saying that the technical aspect you are referring to in the document is wrong, I am simply arguing the use of the term "counterpoise" as a name for what is happening is reading your thoughts into it.


The DB
 
Doesn't need to mention it, the way Maxwell words it explains many things.

As I have said I have read the article many times and I am well aware of how it is worded. I am obviously missing your connection between the article and you associating the term "counterpoise" with it.

To put in perspective where I see you coming from, to me you are effectively referring a car manual to call something an apple. I maintain that the term "counterpoise" is something that you have assigned a property (well half a property really according to your own referred to article).

What I seem to think a counterpoise is is obviously different than what you seem to think it is. My first post in this thread (I'll be it a rather long post) lays out a lot of what I have discovered researching the topic at hand, and while I do have my preferred definition that I tend to stick to, I am open to other interpretations, and am actively seeking more sources.

I invite you to enlighten me and quote from Reflections heavily in the process. Show me what you see that I missed.


The DB
 
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As I see it there are three main areas to consider, its origins and history when referring to antennas, its definition, and its current uses.

The origins of the term are not in doubt. Any number of ARRL and Antenna Engineering books that date to the 40's and 50's and before have excellent descriptions of what a counterpoise was at the time. While all of them are somewhat different from each other, all of them (that I have access to) explain it as a network of wires that are elevated above and isolated from the earth. This allows it to act as one plate of a capacitor with the earth below it acting as the other plate. Most sources call it a capacitive ground, generally referring to a counterpoise by using the paraphrase "sometimes called a counterpoise". Another item of note is the very similar spiderweb diagrams shown for examples of the layout of the ground system. If anyone needs sources for this I am happy to quote several. I would also like to point out that several current sources also refer to a counterpoise in this way, including this wikipedia article, the current version of the ARRL Antenna Book, and the US Marine Corpse Field Antenna Handbook.

The definition of the word would be the next factor that I examine. We should decide if this definition is even relevant for Antenna Engineering as it does not fit the historical uses of the term, and originates elsewhere in engineering. In mechanical engineering, where the word originates, the term means to oppose a force with an equal and opposite force. Some sources use the term "balancing" force. Looking up multiple different web sources for the definition I get the impression (and some specifically state) that the force must be perfectly balanced, or exactly equal to the force being opposed. I can see several areas where this could apply to antennas.

Finally, its current uses are wide and varied. You can talk to any number of people about this and get just as many answers. Some are very similar, but the details tell the story. This holds true even for those knowledgeable in the field. No two peoples version of what a counterpoise is seems to exactly match any one else. Further, the best reason I seem to be able to get is "because xxx used it that way and they know what they are talking about". These people referred to are presented as well known in the field, and typically I have never heard of them. I put most responses in three categories:

1) The radial system on an antenna. For some people it must be elevated, some people include buried radials. Some people include radials that are angled down while others don't, ect. This is by far the most common group.

2) Anything connected to the shield connection on the coax. This would be the second most seen definition.

3) Everything else. This includes whatever doesn't fit the two above. For example, the video below where wires are buried in the ground underneath a horizontal antenna and attached to a coax somewhere up the feed line from the antenna is referred to as a counterpoise.
Ham Radio MARS Counter Poise Ground Saturn Dipole Antenna - YouTube

I typically can generally figure out what someone is talking about via the context of how the term is used, however, if you have one definition in your head and hear/see the term used in a another way that bears no resemblance to your own definition you may be confused. The confusion is compounded for those who are new and are simply trying to learn.

One observation I have made about all of the uses of the term "counterpoise" is that there is no use of the word that doesn't already have a more accurate and descriptive word/phrase already in use to describe what is being referred to.

The above are simply my thought processes. None of it is written in stone. Some categories may be more relevant than others to some people and less relevant to others.

I, personally, am in the traditional definition camp, After all, that is where the term when used with antennas came from. Many newer publications are now including (and others are going back to aka ARRL Antenna Books) it as their definition as well so it seems to be making a comeback.

I'm not sure about the definition that is often given as it originates in mechanical engineering. Antenna theory is part of electrical engineering. While they are both fields of engineering I am at a state of a tossup of weather the definition should still apply or be dismissed. Most people see the definition being completely contradictory to the traditional use of the term in the antenna engineering field.

Current uses I want to completely dismiss out of hand, but I don't find myself doing that. Getting X different descriptions from X different people makes me wonder who is in fact correct, if anyone really is at all. That being said, the majority of descriptions out there have similar points. These points, while not fitting in with the traditional definition of the word as it relates to antenna engineering, are non the less a common ground, and that is potentially the start of a new meaning for the word.

Thoughts?

Notes for completeness: There are five separate areas in the ARRL Antenna Book 22'nd Edition that I referred to above where the term "counterpoise" is used. If you use the index to look up "counterpoise" it will give you a page number to a page that has two sentences, a diagram, and a one or two sentence caption to the diagram and that is it. Looking through the book one day I found information in Chapter 9 that contained several paragraphs, another diagram, another caption, and a reference to more information in Chapter 3. In chapter 3 there is a whole subsection with more diagrams. Nothing in chapters 3 or 9 is listed in the index of the book, yet, they contain one of the most complete descriptions I have seen anywhere what a counterpoise is.

Two other areas in the book the term is used as part of the phrase "acts like a counterpoise". I put forth that the context is the differentiator in these cases, as acting like something is not the same as being something.


The DB

I am wondering what the make and model of the meter is that is showing the swr/power and the left to right audio bar graph that was used in that video?
 
Well,what I've studied so far is that an antenna(signal) needs something to push off of,namely a counter poise. The antenna is like a race car,the energy being fed it is likened into gas and the counter poise is the tires that are needed to make the whole thing move.

I assume for the purposes of discussion that these tires are ... (wait for it)... RADIALS!?
 
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I think what's happened over the years is the smart people tried to explain counterpoise to the lesser intelligent and need to be reinterpreted for the not so knowledgable so we all can be on the same playing field . And saying all antennas try to act like a dipole ? I guess I need to read up on antenna theory . And the say that antennas need something to push off of?
 
I agree Maxwell does not use the word "counterpoise" in Reflections II, but I'm not sure that is what 2010 was trying to say.
 
If you look at the obvious gain advantage in the pattern for the Classic Counterpoise model that has been considered earlier, we see it does show a pattern distortion with added gain over a 1/4 wave ground plane at the same height, albeit both the first two models may be a bit too close to the Earth for the best scenario with either.

View attachment counterpoise vs. ground plane.pdf

I repeat, it is my opinion that this practical advantage could be explained simply in lieu of the claim that a true counterpoise ground system is superior...because it is a better designed system.

I think it could be instead, that the counterpoise pattern is enhanced by two factors. The 50% horizontal portion of the radiator may show some gain advantage due to ground currents associated with horizontal wires. I make reference for this idea in the post noted below with my reference to W8JI.

Probably the more significant advantage may be in the effects of having the radials asymmetrically positioned relative to the radiator, all pointing in one general direction rather than in a complete and balanced circle. I think doing such is also generally known to skew the RF pattern in the direction of the radials...like a 1/4 wave ground plane antenna with only 1 radial.

I made the post below earlier in another thread:

Here are the Eznec models of the Classic counterpoise vs. ground plane at various heights I posted earlier.

View attachment 9744

I don't want to get ahead of all the important reading and considering we have ahead of us, but I would like to consider what these models show me.

First off I have a question. Does the "Counterpoise example" model below appear to be a fair representation of the model in Frank C. Jones Radio Handbook for 1937 (p. 39) image for the Classic counterpoise?

cps-1.gif


If so, it appears quite evident that the "Counterpoise example" model at 27.205 mhz shows an advantage in gain over the ground plane at the same height above Earth. I also note that the Jones article referred to low frequency AM broadcast considerations, in case that makes some difference.

So, I wonder if the counterpoise ground setup that we see here is actually producing the better gain, as has been suggested, or is this advantage due to some other facts...maybe as per comments by W8JI below?

As per W8JI, we know how horizontal radiators tend to show more isotropic gain than verticals over real Earth, and this is said to be due to the ground effects as noted in this link: Antennas for Receiving and Transmitting

Scroll down to his "Warning..."

I suggest this counterpoise model is possibly showing this increase in gain over the ground plane, because 50% of the radiator is horizontal and we have ground effects to be considered...as noted by W8JI. So, what if this advantage is not because of the superiority of the counterpoise design and capacitive effects we're discussing? Or, what if the difference is small, like I suggested elsewhere?

Consider what might happen if I make the "Counterpoise example" model with a full vertical radiator and compare that to the ground plane...at the same heights.

Here I hope to demonstrate what I see concerning the counterpoise in a more practical way. I just don't know enough to talk technically about the subject.
 
I think what's happened over the years is the smart people tried to explain counterpoise to the lesser intelligent and need to be reinterpreted for the not so knowledgable so we all can be on the same playing field . And saying all antennas try to act like a dipole ? I guess I need to read up on antenna theory . And the say that antennas need something to push off of?

I agree Maxwell does not use the word "counterpoise" in Reflections II, but I'm not sure that is what 2010 was trying to say.

All antennas need two halves to operate, that is a well proven fact. If you don't give the antenna that other half it will find something to use in its place, be it coax shielding, mast, the roof of your car, ext.

Some people take it a step further by calling anything that makes up this other half a "counterpoise". I believe that this is a misunderstanding that comes from a lack of proper understanding of what the term meant beforehand.

My argument with nav2010 isn't in the physics, but what the other half is rightfully called, or in his case I believe mistakenly called. This same argument can be applied to Lil'Yeshua's argument as well. This commonly used but not exclusive use of the term marks a distinctive break in what the term used to mean.

As far as the physics goes, I am not in argument with anything that comes up in Reflections. Nav2012 used a source that does indeed confirm what is happening with some of the physics in relation to an antenna (called load in the document). I was not arguing the physics at all but instead seeing if he could back up what he said and speak to/quote what was said in the referred to document. Instead he gives me no information on where in the 68 page document (the version I have in .pdf format) I could find the information but instead simply said that the document speaks for itself. I was disappointed here as he made a bold claim (imho) and, as of yet, failed to back it up.


The DB
 
This new thread is hopefully done in order to continue the discussion on the meaning of the word "counterpoise," so the ideas and the conversations do not get buried within another unrelated thread...and lost as a future reference on the subject.

Here is Homer's original thread that begins this earlier discussion: http://www.worldwidedx.com/cb-antennas/144300-whole-truth-nothing-but-truth-counterpoise.html

Homer, I kind of like the idea described here: Counterpoise - what does it mean?. This topic is on the www.VK1OD.net Website, and was posted by someone on my thread "Does height above Earth effect the common mode current response?"

Some of the comments thus far are confusing and maybe even a bit simplistic, while other reports from folks like W8JI, Laport, Cebik, and others...seem far too technical for me. So, I'm persuaded for now with this idea by VK1OD.

IMO, VK1OD's idea seems like a good compromise that others in this group on WWDX might consider.
I read it, and may need to again. However, so far it seems that VK10D's definition is just another of the myriad of contributions to what he calls "means all things to all"
While I understand his sentiments about it may be best to avoid the use of the term altogether, not unlike Cebik's conclusion, I disagree with him deciding to formulate a new idea (at least that's how I read it) until he is able to identify the original.
To be perfectly honest I fail completely to see him make any connection to the original meaning of the word anywhere in the article. And my position has more or less congealed upon the premise that the only way to know what the true meaning of the word is as it pertains to antenna science is to clarify that original meaning.
 

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