Sirio Gain Master - First report

[BOOTY MONSTER]

my post was in reference to robbs comment about how sound is perceived by the human ear . and it is absolutely correct .

captain kilowatt told me in another thread that theres no difference in rf db's and audio db's .
i dont know enough about rf db's to question or debate that and im not going to because it doesn't matter to me .

http://www.worldwidedx.com/cb-antennas/81556-all-new-predator-30-k-plus-antenna-31.html#post247441
post 310

" dB's are dB's and there is no difference between "RF" dB's and "audio" dB's. The Decibel (dB) is a unit of measurement. "

i'm a big fan of cutting and pasting and using links to other info

 

[Kamikaze]

not quite

About Decibels (dB)

"Perception of Loudness (20dB = 4x)

Interestingly, our perception of loudness is not the same as sound pressure level. Although the actual formulae
is somewhat complex, as a rough rule of thumb, an increase of 10db SPL is perceived to be approximately twice as loud.

Thus a 20 Db gain would seem to be about 4 times as loud.
And a 40 Db gain would seem to be about 16 times as loud."

With loudspeakers it takes a 6db increase in power to achieve a 3dB increase in loudness due to the inverse square law.

 

[Kamikaze]

Better watch out Booty, Mack will put you in his sig file for copying and pasting.


But db in sound levels don't relate to db at RF levels someone can use a stock mic they are giving the same signal but sound rather low, they then change to a power mic the signal stays the same but now they sound louder. those db ratings are more along the lines of sound pressure changing. I don't think you can relate them to RF use.

That would be modulation depth and most likely average volume increases.

 

[Kamikaze]

Okay - I lucked out tonight and had stations to give me reports.

Across the board 0.5 to 1 full S unit difference between the Imax and Sirio Gain Master with the Gain Master getting the nod.

As for receive I still saw no difference between local stations on the incoming signals.

SWR at 1.5 or lower from 25.500 all the way up to 30.000.

Full write up to come but the antenna so far has definitely impressed me.

There's a problem. Antenna performance should be recriprocal.

If transmit indicates an improvement, receive should do the same.

 

[cbradiomagazine.com]

hey CB, i probably dont even have to ask, but are you telling the other stations which antenna is which?
LC

Blind taste test but I did reveal to them which was which in the end.

Going to do some testing with the elderly neighbor tomorrow to see if the tvi issue is cured with the GM.

Tested on AM no mike gain but also got reports on SSB as well. In one case on SSB I went from the GM to the IMAX and the station had trouble copying me and my signal had dropped about a S unit down to the static level. I went back to the GM and he replied... that's better, now I can hear you again.

Have to say I got a work out raising and lowering the mast 20 times.

At this point I feel comfortable in saying this antenna outperforms the IMAX for TX and we can assume also outperforms the A99. I have not seen the RX claims others have experienced, in testing it was on par with the Imax almost exactly.

Now time permitting I may get a Maco 5/8 set up for some direct testing BUT in my previous testing of the Imax 2000 vs. the Maco 5/8 I recorded quite a few test results and the Maco 5/8 beat the Imax 2000 in RX by roughly 1/4 S unit. On TX my results came back with similar results of the Maco 5/8 beating the Imax 2000 by 1/4 to 1/2 S unit consistently. I did all this testing about a year ago on the same mast I used for my most recent test. That being the case we could make the leap and say that the Maco 5/8 may very slightly edge out the GM on RX but since the Maco had .25 to .50 S unit increases over the Imax for TX and the GM has .50 to 1.0 S unit increases recorded over the Imax that the GM is slightly outperforming the Maco 5/8 on TX.

I would venture to say that this is a leap in reasoning especially since the Maco 5/8 was not involved in the head to head testing so at this time I wouldn't feel comfortable making any claims that a Sirio GM can beat a traditional ground plane antenna. That may be determined down the road or by others here on the forum.

At this point though I feel totally comfortable in saying that head to head with the Imax 2000 the GM will outperform on TX by the tune of 0.5 to 1 S units and I think my findings are fairly consistent with what others have experienced.

 

[BOOTY MONSTER]

With loudspeakers it takes a 6db increase in power to achieve a 3dB increase in loudness due to the inverse square law.

Secrets of Amplifier and Speaker Power Requirements Revealed

"If a sound gets louder by 3 decibels or "slightly louder," it takes twice as much electrical power from your receiver or amp to produce that modest increase. Therefore, a 100-watt amplifier will produce sound only slightly louder than a 50-watt amplifier.

So far, so good. But what if it's party time, and you're listening to music "very loud," a level defined as about 90 dB Sound Pressure Level (SPL), and your speakers are gobbling up swings of 15 to 20 watts per channel on those musical peaks.

Drink in hand, you advance to the volume control on your receiver thinking, "I'll just crank this up to make the music twice as loud," and you turn up the volume control until there's a 10 dB increase in the sound level. Now your party-time goal of "twice as loud" will make huge electrical demands on your nice little multi-channel receiver or power amp. The receiver must deliver ten times as much power to double the subjective loudness. Between 6 dB and 10 dB is double the volume level, where 6 dB is four times the power and 10 dB is 10 times the power. In the aforementioned example, the amp must produce 150 to 200 watts per channel for those peaks in loudness. Therefore, every 10-dB increase in acoustic loudness--from 80 dB to 90 dB, or 90 dB to 100 dB--requires ten times as much electrical power in watts."

 

[15minigrass]

OK guys, maybe this is what Kale or BD777 meant by increase in Audio........ Anyone????

"Now here's where it got interesting - with the Gain Master installed the station saw the very slight boost in signal strength but he said I was noticeably louder and CLEARER compared to the Imax.

He said my signal came in with less static and his description of the audio said it sounded like I turned something up."

 

[jazzsinger]

OK guys, maybe this is what Kale or BD777 meant by increase in Audio........ Anyone????

"Now here's where it got interesting - with the Gain Master installed the station saw the very slight boost in signal strength but he said I was noticeably louder and CLEARER compared to the Imax.

He said my signal came in with less static and his description of the audio said it sounded like I turned something up."

i think you'll find excitement in the voice or just getting closer to the mike due again to excitement from using a new piece of equipment would be responsible for any perceived change in audio by any antenna. wild claims of voodoo happening in antennas are just bullshit James.

i've never known anyone not to get excited whilst testing new equipment, even old hats at the game. if someone was testing antennas with me i could probably identify the new one 99 times out of a hundred just by picking up on the change of emotion in the testers voice. if you've just spent 100 odd dollars on something your impatience to see improvement will always be conveyed in the voice, no-one wants to spend money on shite.

do you not find it suspicious that Kale still hasn't posted the file from the government special agent who this claim supposedly originated from? because i do.

 

[HomerBB]

There's a few won't posts goin' around . . .
goin' around from the Prez on down.

 

[Marconi]

OK guys, maybe this is what Kale or BD777 meant by increase in Audio........ Anyone????

"Now here's where it got interesting - with the Gain Master installed the station saw the very slight boost in signal strength but he said I was noticeably louder and CLEARER compared to the Imax.

He said my signal came in with less static and his description of the audio said it sounded like I turned something up."

Hey 15, I don't know what Kale is claiming, but I know what you're referring to in you description of the event you had. Don't let Ole George hornswoggle you into believing you guys didn't experience what you heard. He could not possibly know.

For me, it is not something that happens regular and all the time, but it does happen, and these gubbers have probably heard the same, but had nothing at the moment to compare to. IMO, if one station doesn't have two similar polarity antennas up and switchable in rapid succession, then the phenomenon you heard could not be easily realized, and old George may be using just one rabbit ear for all we know.

Are such events due to the antenna, or is location differences associated with some atmospheric or reflection thing going on? I don't know the answer, but it is just a plain BS lie to say that what you heard or what the other guy heard was a figment of you imaginations, I don't care how much ole Georgie Boy hates Kale and/or what he thinks. Maybe I shouldn't leave unmentioned what JoGunn has stated about the issue of audio. That probably gets him in an fit of anger too. Maybe old George needs to start drinking some of our Yankee brew, he's gettin' sort of cranky don't you think?

Maybe you did have some zeal going on at that moment and our Limey' brother might be right about that. Such emotions can reflect in the human voice, but I doubt that was what was observed at the time if you both talked about the audio difference.

399 in Columbia, SA, commented to me a while back something very similar, and posted the same on this forum and maybe in this thread. Are all of us yanks just hearing things?

Now if such events cannot be duplicated then what we experienced has to be in question, but don't let these guys make you out to be a CB gubber that's just imagining things. They have absolutely no proof of anything their words claim on the subject.

I would love to experience the humiliation of being wrong on this one if they can produce any reliable proof to the contrary.

I have a video demonstrating this to some degree, but it is not overwhelmingly good evidence, and is surely subject to interpretation. But, I think I captured such an event on a video where the signals were opposite of your situation. I too could make an argument that static was involved, and I mentioned that in the video. IMO that evidence of being able to copy a station on the New Top One vs. Gain Master was remarkable to me, and I did not expect that.

I also admitted that at other times and with different antennas I saw the Gain Master show similar results in reverse. So maybe it is not the antenna, but to say that it doesn't happen, just because one might hate the words of another is just plain bull-headedness. I just don't get why folks can't accept anecdotal reports and if they disagree then ask ligament questions or make some constructive arguments, and a little proof don't hurt either...rather than just making broad unsupported claims and calling folks liars or imagining things. That's being rude and provocative and what does that get us?

You guys fight, bitch, and fuss over nothing constructive a lot of the time, and some are worse than others, but to be fair I guess questions fall into the same category by most, since direct questions often go totally unanswered and tend to piss some off.

 

[cbradiomagazine.com]

I was just describing the reaction of the station, the .5 S unit increase was most likely responsible for the louder perceived audio, the part that I had originally found interesting was that the station said I sounded clearer. At an increase from a 6 to 6.5 I thought that was an interesting comment from that station.

I don't think there is any need to analyze the stations statement to death.....it is what it is. Now I did plenty of AM deadkey tests that resulted in the 1 S unit increase so "excitement in my voice" wasn't a factor.

With the number of antennas and radios I've gone through I don't find myself yelling into the mic with excitement

Whatever the argument that is trying to be made I stand by my .5 to 1 S unit increase over IMAX 2000 and to another station listening that increase will make you sound louder.

Lastly please remember that I did this testing out of curiosity and interest. I have no stake in any of this and don't own stock in any of these companies. I post my info only to help further the hobby and I am not one nor have ever been one to make wild claims.

 

[dxswe]

Sorry double post

 

[dxswe]

One reason that I can hear stations better is that
I have less static noise with the GM compares to
others antenna I have own..The rf choke is answer for that
I suppose.You don't see so much improvement in S unit
but in audio the improvement is more noticeable.

 

[Marconi]

You did good CB Radio. I missed the fact that you had some observations like this too. I think I agree with Dxswe as well. But when I saw the New Top One show improved audio over the GM, I was amazed.

I change antennas quite often and I see it sometimes with some antennas and not others I think. BTW, this response is not something I experience usually, it is something that others tell me from time to time when I'm comparing antennas and switching from one to the other.

Ole George (the Jazzsinger) will be happy to know that I've never experienced such improved audio happen when I was comparing an antenna to my A99, side by side.

 

[MrSuburban]

my post was in reference to robbs comment about how sound is perceived by the human ear . and it is absolutely correct .

captain kilowatt told me in another thread that theres no difference in rf db's and audio db's .
i dont know enough about rf db's to question or debate that and im not going to because it doesn't matter to me .

http://www.worldwidedx.com/cb-antennas/81556-all-new-predator-30-k-plus-antenna-31.html#post247441
post 310

" dB's are dB's and there is no difference between "RF" dB's and "audio" dB's. The Decibel (dB) is a unit of measurement. "

i'm a big fan of cutting and pasting and using links to other info

There sure is a difference a 10 db increase in rf is not a 10 db increase in audio. 10 db = 10 x the rf power, 10 db in audio is 2x the loudness.

3 db = 1.23 x loudness
6 db = 1.52 x loudness.
10 db = 2x loudnesss

Relationship Between Watts and dBs — Reviews and News from Audioholics

1) a logarithmic scale used to denote a change in the relative strength of an electric signal or acoustic wave. It is a standard unit for expressing the ratio between power and power level. Using the logarithmic relationship for power PdB = 10*log[Pout/Pin] , a doubling of electrical power only yields an increase of +3 dB. Increasing the power tenfold will yield an increase of +10 dB and is a doubling of perceived loudness. The decibel is not an absolute measurement, but indicates the relationship or ratio between two signal levels.

http://www.sengpielaudio.
com/calculator-levelchange.htm

Definitions:
Sound level or noise level − a physical quantity measured with measuring instruments.
Loudness − a psycho-physical sensation perceived by the human auditory
perception or the human ear/brain mechanism.
10 dB more level means usually "double loudness" are told us by the psycho-acousticians.Decibel − one-tenth of a bel, which is the logarithm of the ratio of any two energy-like
quantities or field-like quantities.





The dB in Communications