SWR when you are running a tuner?

[mr_fx]

It's your call bro treat-it your way...
but really
Your now on one of the largest (if not the largest) Databases in the world...
The FCC...The CIA...NSA...FBI...the duewhap dity...
Your a Federally Licensed Amateur Radio Operator....young Jedi...damn I did it again
All the Best
Gary/W9FNB

lol, I know. But at the same time I kinda want contacts to be made for lack of a better term, naturally, unaided, and I kinda look at the internet as an aid, maybe even a crutch

 

[Beetle]

lol, I know. But at the same time I kinda want contacts to be made for lack of a better term, naturally, unaided, and I kinda look at the internet as an aid, maybe even a crutch

How's that work - the Internet helping with contacts? I'm K7KBN and have been for over 50 years. The only way I'd get "help" making a QSO from the Internet is if I arrange a schedule with somebody at a specific time and specific frequency.

I'm listening on the air right now. Unless you're listening on the same frequency within about +/- 3KHz, you won't hear me.

I'll never understand why newer hams are so reluctant to announce their calls. You have to do it when you're on the air, right? People can look up the call and know your name and where you're located before you finish calling CQ. It's been that way for as long as I've been licensed - but back in the early days (for me, 1959) you had to look it up in a Call Book.

You've got a call - be proud of it!

 

[mr_fx]

perhaps the old hams I know have internetaphobia?

I don't know, I guess I still kinda feel like a child in the HAM community, you know everything is new and full of wonder. I kinda fear if I start using the internet to setup qso's that I might as well just use skype or the phone. Maybe I am trying to capture some of the magic that the old timers keep telling me about... I mean they say things are different now, and not in a good way

 

[W5LZ]

If you want to use the internet to set up contacts, make schedules, why not? It can certainly work that way. Or, you can just listen and pick out the ones you can hear on the air. Just listening to the bands is more chancy, never know who may be there. And if you don't sort of let people know you are there, how can anyone know you are there? If you don't hear someone calling 'CQ', then you call 'CQ', that's about as normal as it gets. Want to talk to a specific person, or area? Say so, that's normal too.
There are nets that cater to particular contacts, or types of contacts, it's just a matter of finding them. Lots of possibilities, not many that are 'sure things' to some degree, but the possibilities are only limited to you.
Have fun.
- 'Doc

 

[binrat]

If you want to use the internet to set up contacts, make schedules, why not? It can certainly work that way. Or, you can just listen and pick out the ones you can hear on the air. Just listening to the bands is more chancy, never know who may be there. And if you don't sort of let people know you are there, how can anyone know you are there? If you don't hear someone calling 'CQ', then you call 'CQ', that's about as normal as it gets. Want to talk to a specific person, or area? Say so, that's normal too.
There are nets that cater to particular contacts, or types of contacts, it's just a matter of finding them. Lots of possibilities, not many that are 'sure things' to some degree, but the possibilities are only limited to you.
Have fun.
- 'Doc

The one thing I like about being a ham it that as long as you don't break the rules, have fun, to each their own.
Personally I would use the net to set up contacts say with this forums club.

 

[KM3F]

I would like to bring up something most miss about a Fan arrangement.
Trying to do a Fan with 160 and 75/80 can present a problem with feed match.
Here is how it can go.
Say on 1.9 if you have a good SWR on a single dipole than add an 80 meter element guess what you can end up with?
1.9 x 2 = 3.8 in the 80m band as a harmonic relationship.
If you also have an 80m dipole added to the 160 and both are 'seperately' matched down to 50 ohms, once they are put in parrellel the feed impedence may no longer be 50 ohms on either band but some other value.
Depending on the frequency and differences in the fans you can end up with some value in the 25 ohm +/- or the 100 ohm +/- range and never get either match down very flat making the SWR vs Frequency very narrow.
Bottom line is don't build a fan with elements harmonicly related because the power will try to divide betwen them instead of going to the one with the resonant match as it should.
Of course the use of a tuner will cover this up such that you may never see it defeating the use of a Fan configuration on those two bands.
Just something to consider.
.
As far as running a tuner, it's adjusted to present the radio with a match to the feedline impedence that results and not the antenna.
Along with this the transmission line length is now a 'length sensitive' part of the whole system.
With SWR high from transmission line missmatch with the antenna, the concern is the transmission line loss due to the high SWR power loss with reflected power as I squared R loss over and above the normal line loss.
Or the heat loss from the higher RF currents circulating back and forth many times over the same path resistance takes power in the form of heat from the drive power that doesnot get to the antenna. This is now a loss in system efficiency.
To reduce these effects a balun at the transmitter to open wire or ladder line is the better setup for less overall transmission line losses.
The open line/ladder line has much less loss than coax under those operating conditions.
Bottom line, it's not as simple as it appears and why you can't eaisly get the match down without going away from lengths that would normally work..
Good luck.

 

[mr_fx]

You suggesting I should separate them?

 

[W5LZ]

That's a good question, just what is KM3F suggesting, I'm honestly not sure.
If you are going to tune a 'fan dipole' you don't do that to each 'element' and then add them all to the same feed point. You start with all elements connected together and then tune each for it's resonant point. It's a matter of the whole thing being impedance matched, not each separate part of the thing. Each 'part' of that fan dipole will affect the other parts, that's normal. The 'correct' lengths for each band element may not be exactly what was calculated, that's normal too. The signal/power may 'split' between harmonically related and interconnected antennas. That's also about as normal as it gets, and it isn't going to be a biggy in any case. Will that change the radiation pattern of the fan dipole? Yes, but it isn't going to make a huge overall difference in that radiation pattern. You can get that sort of 'change' from the 'classic' pattern just by where the thing is mounted.
If you are only going to be satisfied by 'perfection' then you are going to be disappointed to some degree no matter what antenna you decide on. Try it and see is you should be disappointed with the results before scrapping the idea before you even start. All multiband antennas are compromises, no way around that. So see if that 'compromise' is acceptable to you.
- 'Doc

 

[mr_fx]

I know the 160m/80/40 meter antenna my not be ideal but I am on top band... I have been heard on top band, need I say more? I was informed that I was in the noise but the guy also told me not to feel bad, "It's a kilowatt night"

I have made contacts on 80m and made it into Spain all on $4 worth of baling wire. It may not be ideal but it WORKS

 

[mr_fx]

I don't think it's nearly as bad as you are thinking.. I mean if you are trying to get out of a burning building you are likely going to take the safest and most direct route possible. In this case the RF would want to use the Aerial that best suites it's needs. I mean it it was as bad as you described I think I would have other issues

 

[KM3F]

I don't think you still understand the issue that is possible.
On a standard Fan dipole, the question is how does the RF power on any band know which element to use most?
The answer is the pair with the closest match to the feedline "for power tranfer".
Providing no other element is resonant by harmonic relationship the power goes to a large extent one dipole.
If there is another element that is resonant it's impedence appears 'active' in parellel with the desired dipole. This changes the total match impedence at the common feed point. Same as any parellel circuit would do.
What I tried to give is the resultant impedance may not match the transmission line impedence close enough and results in higher SWR and some splitting of power between other elements. That defeats the Fan intent.
On my Fan used for 80 and 40m only, I started with the 80m dipole.
Plotted the SWR curve, then added the 40m element.
The replot of the 80m dipole shows the same best SWR frequency range did not change 'but' the total bandwidth got narrower.
Adding the 40m element did not change the basic best match frequency on 80m.
The reason why when the band width goes more narrow the antenna Q has been raised.
Going further it's the added capacity to ground the 40m element has caused under it that has cause the change.
Also the seperation distance between the fan elements has a large effect. In my case the seperation is about 5 inches along the total length of the 40m element.
It's all in antenna texts.
What you end up with may indeed work but you are not sure how it is actually working without analysis and underatanding.
As far as my antenna goes, I work DX on 75m all over Europe and into Russia in the winter time and have two contacts in VK land, AK and some islands in the pacific all on SSB..
I don't think it's any special attribute of my antenna, just my location, installation, radio's ability to hear and luck.
The antenna works so well I am reluctant to change the design or location.
I am only trying to bring up that there are other things going on depending on what you are attempting to do.
Good luck.

 

[mr_fx]

I see what you mean. oh well I still plan on building some mono bands soon enough