talking local on 20 and 40 meters..

[Captain Kilowatt]

Enough is enough guys. Lets stick to facts and stop calling each other names. Anyone can see where antenna take off angles change with height and depending on the range of communications wanted different heights will work better for different ranges. A vertical antenna is a poor choice for NVIS due to the overhead null. Antennas too close to the ground can be affected by excessive ground losses and loss of ground gain due to the reflected wave being obstructed too much by buildings etc. There are lots of things that affect NVIS comms depending on the range desired and one installation will not be as effective as the next one. Normal ranges for NVIS are between 30 and about 450 miles usually but may extend out to nearly 1000 miles depending on frequency and take off angle. Anything over that starts to require HIGHER antennas and in the range of only three miles NVIS is not going to happen and SHOULD be covered by ground/surface/direct wave communications. I can cover 3 miles with a vertical hamstick mobile antenna on 40m FFS.

While 40m is good for NVIS comms 20m is not so much so. Usual freqs. used fro NVIS are between 2 and 10 MHz.

 

[DainBramage]

This pissing contest is exactly why I stopped posting in this thread.

one person has turned his lack of knowledge into an attack on basic antenna 101 and anyone that believes it.

For the record, NVIS operations in Iraq were conducted in the 2 to 4 Mhz range at night and in the 4 to 8 Mhz range during the day.

Mobile operations used the standard (5 meter) vertical whip antenna, most fixed stations used the Shirley dipole array.

as with all NVIS propagation, the effective distance is a factor of the radiation angle,... which is a factor of the antenna height above ground.

Antennas at heights (above 1/10 to 1/4 wl) WILL direct the signal at too low an angle and it will not be reflected by the ionosphere. No NVIS propagation will be produced.

NVIS operation will fill the distance gap between GROUND WAVE propagation and F-2 propagation.

Attempting to use NVIS while within the Ground wave coverage distance WILL deteriorate the received signal due to multipath reception.

Bottom line: For NVIS operation, use a low mounted horizontal antenna, (with a reflector below it if possible), and use the correct frequency .

Compared to other lower bands, There is very little NVIS on 40 meters ( it is near the high end of the usable band) during the day, and none at night.

 

[KD2GOE]

ummm i don't even think any of this would to apply to us we are only 3 miles away max...

his call is KD2HQK

edit: i looked him on on QRZ and it lists us being 2 miles but still

 

[543_Dallas]

Storm was known as the first satellite comm war,,most of the coms were used were uplinked and down linked via sat comms.

when the sat comm failed due to software or hardware issues then HF was the standby for comms..data link etc.

Why only 45 feet? because I am in the lightning strike capitol of the world,,why tease mother nature.

I really do not see where you gave anyone any advice on your posts.

I do believe you said I have not built any antennas myself or used anything I have built.

Op asked for reliable comms in short distance,,NVIS cloud burner,, worm cooking,,low slung antenna is what works.

Spoon feed may be to complicated for you,,perhaps you may still be on the bottle.

Not an expert,,just have over 35 years in the communications field.
opinions are like assholes,,everyone has one,,

Unless you have references to back up what you are attempting to advise someone to do then you are doing nothing but wasting bandwidth and time.

But I do find your lack of knowledge amusing and a little entertaining but alas it is hard to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

Go back to your AM side where you can flaunt the fact you guessed a few correct answers on your FCC exam and they awarded you a license.

When you come on a forum and start slinging shit don't get your feathers ruffled if it gets slung back at ya!!

You don't have enough information about desert storm. Just knowing it was HF and most likely below 14mhz is not enough. Your too dense to see that and don't trust me so. Here is some reading material since thats what seems to work for you. All frequencies below 14mzh do not propagate the same. http://www.hamuniverse.com/hfbands.html

Just FYI my licence is a higher class than yours. The fact you've been at this 35 years, are still a general class with a fan dipole shows what you're capable of. Trying to prove the ability of your nvis 75 meter antenna to me 900 miles away is icing on the cake. You started with the insults somehow you think I'm the one that's butt hurt. My feathers are far from ruffled.

I believe someone with a professional background in radio posted that nvis should not be required for a 3 mile trip so why are you stuck on nvis antennas?

Please remember this all started with 2 people 3 miles away trying to communicate on 20 and 40 meters. I said "that's nvis propagation" not that they needed nvis antennas. They already have nvis antennas that fit the criteria you shared for 40 meters and apparently it isn't working for them.

You're the one that's, refuses to get back on topic and forget the nvis thing. Now that were past that you still keep ignoring the fact that ground loss increases as the antenna is lowered. You keep focusing on radiation patterns and nvis. Can we be friends now or would like to call me a few names first? I have thick skin, it's ok.

 

[w9cll]

Just FYI my licence is a higher class than yours. The fact you've been at this 35 years, are still a general class with a fan dipole shows what you're capable of.

Way out of line with that.

 

[543_Dallas]

ummm i don't even think any of this would to apply to us we are only 3 miles away max...

his call is KD2HQK

edit: i looked him on on QRZ and it lists us being 2 miles but still

It doesn't. They're too worried about making sure everyone knows I'm wrong to focus on the original problem.

I haven't talked to anyone that close on 40 meters but with my low doublet guys on similar antennas 10 miles out are very weak but people 40 miles away hear them fine. That's what I meant when I said "that's nvis propagation." I don't see why you couldn't easily talk 2 miles away. No nvis required. I have talked to guys across towm on 20 but I don't use the band much.

Sorry for getting your thread sidetracked.

 

[543_Dallas]

Way out of line with that.

You're right. He threw the first stone but it won't happen again.

 

[kb9ghn]

You're right. He threw the first stone but it won't happen again.

 

[kb9ghn]

As a note to all...nvis is usually best when both the sending and receiving stations have similar settups...signal to noise ratio is of most importance...efficiency of the antenna is irrelevant...all antennas have a specific purpose... I have been using near the ground or at ground level antennas on every camping trip my whole radio career and while everyone cannot hear me usually the ones I am trying to communicate with can...my good friends are mostly surprised ...it works for me on almost any HF band but usually 20 meters and down...just my two cents...BTW...been studying military comms since age 9...1971.thanks..kb9ghn

 

[wavrider]

Can we be friends now or would like to call me a few names first? I have thick skin, it's ok.

I do not recall where I have called you any names, can you reference that post?

I believe I recommended using 10 and 12 meters for local comms..
reference post#21

No challenges issued, just informed you if you wanted to hear some low wire antennas to visit 3.865. Nothing to prove

As for your class license?? Congrats you have joined the other tens of thousands of licensed amateurs who have the time to study for upgrades.


Basically I could care less what antenna you use, you did not ask the questions.
But you did take it personal when your advice was disagreed with referencing sound antenna and propagation theory.

 

[543_Dallas]

You didn't call names but were beating around the bush with comments like me needing to be spoon fed or barely being able to pass the ameatur exam. That is the only reason I pointed out my license class. With today's tests and the study material available that's not something to brag about anyway.

I think the problem here is that both of us got stuck on the point we were trying to make and lost focus on everything else. Both of us overlooked good points made by the other and I'm willing to take my share of the blame.

You did mention using 10 and 12 meters. Thats a great idea but this thread is about 20 and 40. The OP is already doing that and it's working. I think it's good that he is interested in experimenting with 20 and 40 instead of saying screw it and going to 10.

I took nothing personal. Our antennas are about the same height so that's kind of a wash. I do prefer ladder line fed doublets over coax for a multiband antenna but its not for everyone. The w8ji link I put in post #12 isn't too far off from what you shared.

The advice I was giving was that bringing a 20 ft antenna even lower was not going to be productive for typical 40 and 20 meter work. I don't think it would help him make that 3 mile contact but if it did the other effects would be all negative.

 

[wavrider]

The advice I was giving when you was requested to go to 3.865 to listen to some low hung wire antennas was so YOU could hear them,,but Gary and Charles are about 80 miles apart and most of the time they can not hear each other,,both low hung wires for 75 meters so NVIS is not the best for local comms.

That was the point trying to be proven.

As far as class of license,, doesn't mean a hill of beans as long as whatever license you have you enjoy the privileges.

Yes I have 35 years experience in the communications fields,,over two and a half decades of that is serving in our military repairing the communication equipment used by our armed forces,,MARS operatior etc etc nothing to do with what class my hobby license is, nor does it matter as I barely have time to heat up a wire much less spin the yagi between work and family.

Have a great day,,I enjoy a banter of words,,always willing to learn,,maybe one day you can spoon feed me

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

It's not the class of license the operator holds but rather the class of operator that holds the licence.

 

[wavrider]

It's not the class of license the operator holds but rather the class of operator that holds the licence.

Just home from a 16 hour work day enjoying an adult beverage and almost spit it all over the monitor reading this post CK

Don't seem right drinking at 0800 in the morning but this is my night time.
I will finish this Canadian blended whiskey and coke then get some sleep, another 16 hour day ahead again tonight.

 

[HomerBB]

40 has been really long lately during the day. I can normally talk to guys in Houston, San Antonio, Austin/Hill Country, Shreveport, NW Arkansas (you listening, Homer?) and OKC with no problems at all. I can barely hear them lately... everything is long for the most part. Wish I could put my Imax up for 10, 12, and 15, but I'll have to live with stealthy wires for now.

73,
Brett

Brett, do you still have that tuning network for 11m you got from me? Have you tried it on 10 - 15? I think it will do that...