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You are correct sir and I was wrong with my reply directly above yours.
The +3B has an extra set of contacts in the bottom (3) whereas the gray +3 has just 2 sets of contacts.
Thanks!
I've got a grey plus 3 when i bought out a guys station. Still in the original turner box and has never had a plug wired to it. Its sitting in the closet with my other 3 or 4 turners. To me thats where they belong (just my opinion) 
Ive heard many of these mics and they always seem to be very high pitched. Also the ones ive talked on and experimented with has had that same signature high pitch sound on the 11 meter band. As of now there's 14 D104s sitting on my radio bench. D-104 all the way! Again this is just my opinion, not facts!
Ive heard many of these mics and they always seem to be very high pitched. Also the ones ive talked on and experimented with has had that same signature high pitch sound on the 11 meter band. As of now there's 14 D104s sitting on my radio bench. D-104 all the way! Again this is just my opinion, not facts!Hey Booty all i run is a Turner +3! The Expander and +2's are great mics also. I have a Astatic 878 and form what i have been told is that there close to a Astatic 575 hand held mic, whatever it is i think is a good mic too.
The only problems i see with turners is they have a really low frequency response, some radio's dont match up well with a Turner.
The only problems i see with turners is they have a really low frequency response, some radio's dont match up well with a Turner.
ive got the +2,+3, and ssk while there all good
i like the ssk for ssb . on am i like the plus 3 better
so imho it really depends on the mode.i never had
the expander 500 so cant really say honestly. but ive heard
mixed reviews on it
i like the ssk for ssb . on am i like the plus 3 better
so imho it really depends on the mode.i never had
the expander 500 so cant really say honestly. but ive heard
mixed reviews on it
*Turnatic Super Four Kick* Conversion.
Try putting a D-104 head on the front half of a Super Sidekick (or a +3) by drilling a hole in the center of the back of the D-104 head and using the Turner head screw (from behind the back of the Turner head under the round stick-on disc) to attach it by drilling & tapping the back of the D-104 head for that thread pattern.
Don't over-tighten or you'll strip the threads. You may want to use a little Locktite.
Drill a 2nd hole for the wires to run through.
Build one and you'll have the best of both worlds since the D-104 element is a much better sounding element but the Turner preamp adds warmth and richness.
Make sure you use an original '70s-'90s D-104 element in good condition. Sometimes a D-104 element will output sound but will sound extremely high-pitched because it's shot.
Keep your fingers away from the front of the element! Use extreme care!!
What I did was simply to pull off the D-104 neck in a vise after CAREFULLY removing the element & wiring, then I used the round Turner stick-on disc from the rear of the Turner head to fill the hole left by the neck of the D-104 head, which I turned to the bottom 6:00 position when installed.
In the later conversions I used a round flat soft rubber disc gasket I found in a local hardware store which I fitted between the back of the D-104 head and the front edge of the Turner head to add friction between the D-104 chrome and the Turner paint, then Locktite the screw.
These really look sharp when a black +3B is used.
You can also do this to a Super Sidekick but you have to bypass the yellow impedance matching transformer on the circuit board since the original Sidekick element is a low impedance element.
I fabbed this conversion for a lot of operators who brought me all the parts when I was in High School back in the mid '70s, that's how I afforded a lot of toys.
I charged $50 labor and had a lot of happy patrons because it's such a good sounding and unique looking conversion.
I bet you'll get glowing audio reports if you build one.
I've got a grey plus 3 when i bought out a guys station. Still in the original turner box and has never had a plug wired to it. Its sitting in the closet with my other 3 or 4 turners. To me thats where they belong (just my opinion)
Try putting a D-104 head on the front half of a Super Sidekick (or a +3) by drilling a hole in the center of the back of the D-104 head and using the Turner head screw (from behind the back of the Turner head under the round stick-on disc) to attach it by drilling & tapping the back of the D-104 head for that thread pattern.
Don't over-tighten or you'll strip the threads. You may want to use a little Locktite.
Drill a 2nd hole for the wires to run through.
Build one and you'll have the best of both worlds since the D-104 element is a much better sounding element but the Turner preamp adds warmth and richness.
Make sure you use an original '70s-'90s D-104 element in good condition. Sometimes a D-104 element will output sound but will sound extremely high-pitched because it's shot.
Keep your fingers away from the front of the element! Use extreme care!!
What I did was simply to pull off the D-104 neck in a vise after CAREFULLY removing the element & wiring, then I used the round Turner stick-on disc from the rear of the Turner head to fill the hole left by the neck of the D-104 head, which I turned to the bottom 6:00 position when installed.
In the later conversions I used a round flat soft rubber disc gasket I found in a local hardware store which I fitted between the back of the D-104 head and the front edge of the Turner head to add friction between the D-104 chrome and the Turner paint, then Locktite the screw.
These really look sharp when a black +3B is used.
You can also do this to a Super Sidekick but you have to bypass the yellow impedance matching transformer on the circuit board since the original Sidekick element is a low impedance element.
I fabbed this conversion for a lot of operators who brought me all the parts when I was in High School back in the mid '70s, that's how I afforded a lot of toys.
I charged $50 labor and had a lot of happy patrons because it's such a good sounding and unique looking conversion.
I bet you'll get glowing audio reports if you build one.
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If you're looking for increased frequency response from your microphone you might consider replacing the element with an electret condenser type. The D-104 crystal element suffers from loss of low end response when it is loaded down by the pre-amp impedance. Using a 47K bias resistor on an electret with an appropriate coupling cap will provide wider frequency response at very low cost.
Redirection Correction
Following me around and counter-commenting on my every post, are we Donald?
No problem, it's an open forum, just don't expect me to enter into any debate with you, you've already shown that when it comes time to back your theoretical presumptions with claims of concrete evidence, no evidence will materialize, so I will choose not to waste my time.
---------------------------
A condenser element would be better in a studio application, not here.
If you put a condenser element in place of the Turner element you won't have any modulation at all without adding a voltage supply for the condenser element, (as noted in all condenser mic advertisements) a supply voltage from as little as 1.5v to as much as 48v is required for energizing a condenser element.
In doing the D-104 / Turner conversion you will enjoy better, cleaner bass response, smoother, less 'hissy' high frequency response compared to the +3 element, and a much more present, clear and articulate midrange.
Decades ago Hy-gain offered a condenser CB mic which required AA batteries but which had far too much bass and far too little midrange/treble for any radio on which I attempted to use it. Needless to say, they not only didn't sell well but almost no one has ever even seen one nor heard of it.
I still have one... in a box.
A couple of examples of a well-equalized electret condenser mic designed for CB use are the Echomax 2000 and the RF Limited 2018 Xtreme, but both have strong equalization circuits designed to shape the response into a more usable response curve for communications use, not studio applications.
Typically, due to the shape factor of both the mic amp stages and the AM & SSB filtering in an average CB radio, a condenser element without equalization (which provides much stronger bass response than does a D-104 or +3 element) will more often than not provide a very bass heavy, almost muffled sound, even with the biasing resistor installed, and can even cause distortion because of too much bass response overloading the audio amp before it can reproduce enough mid & high frequency energy.
However, I do use a $450 1" diameter element condenser mic on my HAmateur radio, but it runs through a $600 Symetrix 528e processor prior to the radio, and which is then fed directly into the balanced modulator, bypassing the mic amp stage which would only add noise and ruin the frequency response of the balanced signal emanating from the Symetrix.
This $3000 HAmateur radio into which it is fed has four intermediate frequency stages, instead of only a single SSB IF stage like 99% of the CBs in use, and has much higher quality SSB filters with much flatter response than does a CB, along with a user adjustable ALC control.
In closing, I have built at least 40-50 of these conversions over the last 3½ decades, (the last of which was only 8 months ago and is presently used on an Icom IC-775) and not one has failed to please it's user and even more-so, those who listen to them on the air, but it's up to you to try it, IF you want something rather unique, superior sounding, have the parts, the mechanical/soldering ability and the time.
I came up with this conversion when I was only a 15 year-old Freshman in High School so I doubt there are any on this forum who couldn't successfully do it, taking extreme care to avoid touching the diaphragm of the D-104 element.
73
Following me around and counter-commenting on my every post, are we Donald?
No problem, it's an open forum, just don't expect me to enter into any debate with you, you've already shown that when it comes time to back your theoretical presumptions with claims of concrete evidence, no evidence will materialize, so I will choose not to waste my time.
---------------------------
A condenser element would be better in a studio application, not here.
If you put a condenser element in place of the Turner element you won't have any modulation at all without adding a voltage supply for the condenser element, (as noted in all condenser mic advertisements) a supply voltage from as little as 1.5v to as much as 48v is required for energizing a condenser element.
In doing the D-104 / Turner conversion you will enjoy better, cleaner bass response, smoother, less 'hissy' high frequency response compared to the +3 element, and a much more present, clear and articulate midrange.
Decades ago Hy-gain offered a condenser CB mic which required AA batteries but which had far too much bass and far too little midrange/treble for any radio on which I attempted to use it. Needless to say, they not only didn't sell well but almost no one has ever even seen one nor heard of it.
I still have one... in a box.
A couple of examples of a well-equalized electret condenser mic designed for CB use are the Echomax 2000 and the RF Limited 2018 Xtreme, but both have strong equalization circuits designed to shape the response into a more usable response curve for communications use, not studio applications.
Typically, due to the shape factor of both the mic amp stages and the AM & SSB filtering in an average CB radio, a condenser element without equalization (which provides much stronger bass response than does a D-104 or +3 element) will more often than not provide a very bass heavy, almost muffled sound, even with the biasing resistor installed, and can even cause distortion because of too much bass response overloading the audio amp before it can reproduce enough mid & high frequency energy.
However, I do use a $450 1" diameter element condenser mic on my HAmateur radio, but it runs through a $600 Symetrix 528e processor prior to the radio, and which is then fed directly into the balanced modulator, bypassing the mic amp stage which would only add noise and ruin the frequency response of the balanced signal emanating from the Symetrix.
This $3000 HAmateur radio into which it is fed has four intermediate frequency stages, instead of only a single SSB IF stage like 99% of the CBs in use, and has much higher quality SSB filters with much flatter response than does a CB, along with a user adjustable ALC control.
In closing, I have built at least 40-50 of these conversions over the last 3½ decades, (the last of which was only 8 months ago and is presently used on an Icom IC-775) and not one has failed to please it's user and even more-so, those who listen to them on the air, but it's up to you to try it, IF you want something rather unique, superior sounding, have the parts, the mechanical/soldering ability and the time.
I came up with this conversion when I was only a 15 year-old Freshman in High School so I doubt there are any on this forum who couldn't successfully do it, taking extreme care to avoid touching the diaphragm of the D-104 element.
73
Following me around and counter-commenting on my every post, are we Donald?
No problem, it's an open forum, just don't expect me to enter into any debate with you, you've already shown that when it comes time to back your theoretical presumptions with claims of concrete evidence, no evidence will materialize, so I will choose not to waste my time.
---------------------------
A condenser element would be better in a studio application, not here.
If you put a condenser element in place of the Turner element you won't have any modulation at all without adding a voltage supply for the condenser element, (as noted in all condenser mic advertisements) a supply voltage from as little as 1.5v to as much as 48v is required for energizing a condenser element.
In doing the D-104 / Turner conversion you will enjoy better, cleaner bass response, smoother, less 'hissy' high frequency response compared to the +3 element, and a much more present, clear and articulate midrange.
Decades ago Hy-gain offered a condenser CB mic which required AA batteries but which had far too much bass and far too little midrange/treble for any radio on which I attempted to use it. Needless to say, they not only didn't sell well but almost no one has ever even seen one nor heard of it.
I still have one... in a box.
A couple of examples of a well-equalized electret condenser mic designed for CB use are the Echomax 2000 and the RF Limited 2018 Xtreme, but both have strong equalization circuits designed to shape the response into a more usable response curve for communications use, not studio applications.
Typically, due to the shape factor of both the mic amp stages and the AM & SSB filtering in an average CB radio, a condenser element without equalization (which provides much stronger bass response than does a D-104 or +3 element) will more often than not provide a very bass heavy, almost muffled sound, even with the biasing resistor installed, and can even cause distortion because of too much bass response overloading the audio amp before it can reproduce enough mid & high frequency energy.
However, I do use a $450 1" diameter element condenser mic on my HAmateur radio, but it runs through a $600 Symetrix 528e processor prior to the radio, and which is then fed directly into the balanced modulator, bypassing the mic amp stage which would only add noise and ruin the frequency response of the balanced signal emanating from the Symetrix.
This $3000 HAmateur radio into which it is fed has four intermediate frequency stages, instead of only a single SSB IF stage like 99% of the CBs in use, and has much higher quality SSB filters with much flatter response than does a CB, along with a user adjustable ALC control.
In closing, I have built at least 40-50 of these conversions over the last 3½ decades, (the last of which was only 8 months ago and is presently used on an Icom IC-775) and not one has failed to please it's user and even more-so, those who listen to them on the air, but it's up to you to try it, IF you want something rather unique, superior sounding, have the parts, the mechanical/soldering ability and the time.
I came up with this conversion when I was only a 15 year-old Freshman in High School so I doubt there are any on this forum who couldn't successfully do it, taking extreme care to avoid touching the diaphragm of the D-104 element.
73
As per usual you missed the important technical information in favor of more controversy. The 47K resistor provides bias to the electret right off the 9 volt battery switched terminal. No equalization is required to tailor the bass response either. That's the job of the "appropriate value coupling cap". This is basic electronics. Control the low end cutoff with a 25 cent capacitor. It's called passive filtering and is much less susceptible to RFI like active equalization is. Feel free to experiment with values ranging from .001 to .1 uf to find what suits your voice the best.
As a side note, all those stages of IF filtering in your HF rig actually narrow the frequency response of the transmitter significantly more then in a CB radio. Additionally, anyone who has ever done an audio sweep test on one of these rigs knows the audio stages are far from flat in frequency response. They are tailored for communications grade audio with a peak in mid range. Broadcast transmitters are close to flat in response and is why they sound so much better.
Coupling caps are used to limit bass response and they use high frequency negative feedback loops on the AF amplification stages to clamp the high end treble. This is all in addition to the IF filters. Most of the Hi-Fi rice box AM rigs on 75 meters have had their coupling caps and negative feedback loop modified and they bypass the IF crystal filtering in TX.
It is also not required to drive the balanced modulator directly once you know how to modify the mic pre-amp stages to be truly flat in response. Most people do not know how to do this so they take a short cut and use an external preamp or EQ that in most cases was not designed to work in an RF environment. If you need to remove some mid range just use a cap in series with a coil to notch out frequencies around 1 KHz.
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Precisely why I chose the Symetrix, because it was designed correctly, providing excellent RFI filtering.
Switching to balanced output is well recognized throughout the broadcast & audio industry as one way to effectively eliminate RFI issues, thank you, and I preferred to direct-drive the balanced modulator because I didn't need an unnecessary additional unbalanced noise inducing stage of typically RFI sensitive mic amplification, nor an unnecessary mic amp rebuild when a rather simple bypass made miles of improvement, especially with the wider IF filtering added providing flat response from below 50Hz to well above 3.4KHz.
An electret condenser element has little or no rise in the upper frequencies with comparison to the midrange which adds that terrific clarity heard on the clearest sounding stations as has been designed into the D-104 communications element and is built into most Heil elements which are designed for communications applications without requiring an outboard EQ.
Attempting to use so small a series capacitor value to force a ~2KHz rise will cause so steep a low frequency roll-off it will eliminate nearly all bass leaving the end result a very crisp but body-less sound.
Been there, done that, and regarding your patronizing techie-talk, that's why I bothered to take the time to offer the Super Four Kick conversion, not for another chance for you to swoop into another person's efforts and offer unsolicited correction of that which needs no correcting, nor as a vehicle for you to spout more of your textbook theory, but because it provides a simple and fun project creating not only something offering uniquely different aesthetics but something which will actually work and sound good without having to waste time building a circuit in an unsuccessful attempt to force it.
Theory over experience again, ol' boy? - I understand, and "as per usual", most 'techies' tend to continually make that mistake.
Mmmm, I can't wait to see what you'll grab next to :bdh:
My initial response in this tread was not directed towards you CDX. I was offering a cheap trouble free way of obtaining higher fidelity for other forum members. Although I admit that I knew based on your previous interaction that you would take the same point of view. I'm not interested.
On the other hand for those who want Hi-Fi rather then communications grade audio with a spike in mid range, below is a mod you can do with a few dollars in Radio Shack parts that will rival the performance of the expensive outboard rack. It works best with a D-104 M6 or an 1104C. They use nice low noise FET pre-amps.
I wanted my radio to be Hi-Fi just by plugging a quality mic into the front panel. If you take the time to modify the caps in the mic pre amp and speech amp, the usable frequency response is just as good as external audio. The use of a passive notch filter in your mic line can go a long way in eliminating the need for external audio equipment and the possible RFI associated with it. The notch should occur between 350 and 750 cycles depending on your preferences.
The filter is nothing more then a series resonant circuit at the notched audio frequency and is comprised of one inductor and one capacitor. 24 volt DC relay coils with a resistance around 750 ohms often have the right inductance when used with a series cap value around .1uF. The filter must be installed following a stage with an output impedance of 10K ohms or more in order to give the filtered AF signal a place to drop its voltage.
The filter works great in Astatic amplified microphones using an electret condenser element feed with a 33K bias resistor off the 9 volt battery and automatically turns the element off since these mics switch the negative line on the battery. The notch filter installs directly across the condenser element. Install an appropriate coupling cap to block DC and limit low end response and windscreen foam is a must on these elements otherwise they sound muffled. The coupling cap should be around .01uF.
On the other hand for those who want Hi-Fi rather then communications grade audio with a spike in mid range, below is a mod you can do with a few dollars in Radio Shack parts that will rival the performance of the expensive outboard rack. It works best with a D-104 M6 or an 1104C. They use nice low noise FET pre-amps.
I wanted my radio to be Hi-Fi just by plugging a quality mic into the front panel. If you take the time to modify the caps in the mic pre amp and speech amp, the usable frequency response is just as good as external audio. The use of a passive notch filter in your mic line can go a long way in eliminating the need for external audio equipment and the possible RFI associated with it. The notch should occur between 350 and 750 cycles depending on your preferences.
The filter is nothing more then a series resonant circuit at the notched audio frequency and is comprised of one inductor and one capacitor. 24 volt DC relay coils with a resistance around 750 ohms often have the right inductance when used with a series cap value around .1uF. The filter must be installed following a stage with an output impedance of 10K ohms or more in order to give the filtered AF signal a place to drop its voltage.
The filter works great in Astatic amplified microphones using an electret condenser element feed with a 33K bias resistor off the 9 volt battery and automatically turns the element off since these mics switch the negative line on the battery. The notch filter installs directly across the condenser element. Install an appropriate coupling cap to block DC and limit low end response and windscreen foam is a must on these elements otherwise they sound muffled. The coupling cap should be around .01uF.
I own the black version of the +3b desk mic and love it. All reports come back with "good sounding radio" and when I took the mic and Roadtalker to the shop he asked where I found this mic and if I would consider selling it. He offered a mb6 wired to my radio and $25 but I like the sound and look of the turner. It reminds me of the old P.A. mic they had in the office of my elementary school "wow I'm old". Anyway good luck in your decisions.
Anyway good luck in your decisions.