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Vector 4000 Remake

Thanks, Bob.
This will be very helpful. I wanted to know I was in the ball park.

The Gamma strap i never had a length for, I don't think, so I assumed the gamma needed to stay on the same plane as the radials.

How long would you suggest?

Homer, my S4 and the gamma off of an old Vector both show the top bracket to be 6" center or rod to center of radiator. The radials are also 6" away from the radiator at the dog bone bracket, so the gamma and the radials are in the same plane as you suggest at that point.

The only thing I see that you might wish to considered if things don't work out with the match, might be due to the increased diameter of the gamma at the bottom of the tube...where you're using the larger diameter copper hardware to connect things. Among other things, the transformation ratio of the gamma match is affected by the length of the rod, the spacing of the rod from the antenna, and the ratio of the diameter of the rod to that of the tube element and the radiator elements. In the case of the Sigma4/Vector the radials also come into play.

Sigma 4 top gamma bracket (640x480).jpg

Vector 4000 top gamma bracket (640x480).jpg
 
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I wish i had the talent to build my own sigma 4 but knowing how i am (ADHD issues!) id fuck it all up.
 
@Marconi
That's what I had, and now I shortened the strap to 5.25". I may have to make another one . . .

@zman
Come on over and we'll build one together :D


I did a little more modification to the antenna today, but it isn't so apparent as to show much. I put in a different Gamma sleeve, and set to trying to tune the thing up using the MFJ-259b. What a challenge.
The work platform of the tower was pretty useless with this antenna because although I could reach the coax connector to hook up the analyzer, the gamma adjustments were completely out of reach. SO the tower was cranked up and down several times until I ran out of tie and just quit. Too tired for more today. I am not sure where to take it from here, but it isn't where I hoped it would be in terms of the analyzer tuning. I have no references as to what to expect from tuning this type antenna using one. I have been unable to locate anything online referencing the anticipated outcome. As for reading SWR with the SWR meter in the shack - it loves this antenna.

For now, some analyzer readings:

with 89" coax into the shack -

28.665 ------------- 2.0:1 ----- R=55 ----- X=27
27.895 ------------- 1.5:1 ----- R=86 ----- X=0
27.385 ------------- 1.3:1 ----- R=46 ----- X=14
26.585 ------------- 1.5:1 ----- R=58 ----- X=20
25.725 ------------- 2.0:1 ----- R=82 ----- X=24

with 1/2ƛ electrical jumper on tower -

28.475 ------------ 2.0:1 ----- R=38 ----- X=13
27.550 ------------ 1.3:1 ----- R=48 ----- X=12
27.385 ------------ 1.3:1 ----- R=46 ----- X=15
27.345 ------------ 1.3:1 ----- R=48 ----- X=16
26.965 ------------ 1.5:1 ----- R=69 ----- X=18
26.480 ------------ 2.0:1 ----- R=118 --- X=0

V4104b_zps43879894.jpg


V4105b_zpse70ce3aa.jpg


V4106b_zps087ba4e3.jpg
 
Homer, what I see is your antenna resonance changing wildly as the feed line length changes, and that suggests feedline transformation.

Is your mast isolated from the antenna?

Is your choke included in your working feed line, or is it terminated at both ends so it can be added or removed?

If the choke is removable, have you compared using it with your 1/2 wave resonant line to see if it made a difference to the match?

What happened to the match when you lowered the antenna and tried to tune it better?

What did you adjust, how far did you move, and in what direction? Which working line did you use in this tuning process?
 
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Is this 89" inches of coax or 89' feet?

Is the mast isolated from the antenna?

It should have read 85 feet, and, yes, the antenna is isolated. Today I added a wooden dowel - Ash shovel handle - between the antenna and the mast.

I also tested the coax with a dummy load. It had a 1.1 or 1.0 SWR with from R52/X0 to R50/X0 across the 27 Mhz spectrum.
The dummy load was the same on the electrical 1/2ƛ jumper.
 
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It should have read 85 feet, and, yes, the antenna is isolated. Today I added a wooden dowel - Ash shovel handle - between the antenna and the mast.

I also tested the coax with a dummy load. It had a 1.1 or 1.0 SWR with from R52/X0 to R50/X0 across the 27 Mhz spectrum.
The dummy load was the same on the electrical 1/2ƛ jumper.

What did this test using the dummy load suggest to you about what you're seeing with the antenna instead of the dummy load at the end of the line?

Do you see how much difference in resonance your antenna produces just changing the feed line length? If you don't get this issue under better control, and it doesn't have to be perfect like you dummy load shows, but you need better control or nothing else you do will produce predictable or good results unless you just get real lucky.

This is as a note only. My Sigma4 at 11' feet shows a resistive match over the following <2.0:1 SWR bandwidth range R=19 to R= 66, with a reactive match X=-6 to X=-23 for the full bandwidth. This data overall is much better than you are reporting.

This data was read via my Autek VA1 connected directly to the feed point, but I don't have enough reports to establish a good trend of the match, because I was doing like you are, trying to test too many things at once and before I got a real good control over the match. I was just chasing my tail. At some point I also found a structural error in the angle for the gamma match. It was not centered precisely between the radials as it should be. That threw my resonance off and changing the reactive part of the antenna would not fix the problem because I had a bump in my matching device. This is also what I see in your gamma construction, an impedance bump that possibly shows unreliable results. I probably bumped the gamma out of position at some point over the years while stored in the garage.

There is good information on the New Vector 4000 manual that might help you get closer than you are now. First off, your bandwidth shows to be much wider than the model should produce. It is more than twice what Sirio shows for their similar antenna. It is nice to have a good wide bandwidth in some cases, but it can also be the result of increased losses somewhere...and then it is not so desirable. This often happens with a new antenna that has never been tested or tuned before, and then only if the maker does a lot of prep work, marking or fixing the dimensions to be used and then testing the results...will such an antenna work as predicted, right out of the box.

A long time ago I suggested to both you and Booty Monster to set your antennas up exactly as Sirio indicated in their manual for the New Vector 4000, don't add anything or modify anything. Purpose being to get you close to a working antenna that shows good results right out of the box...which I think the NV4 produced by Sirio does surprisingly well. When I say, "...shows good results right out of the box." I'm not talking about performance, I'm referring to some characteristic that the manufacture provides that can be easily measured by any CB'r. In this case it is the bandwidth which is a very good indicator that most CB operators can measure and chart easily.

Then Homer, when you're satisfied and not still wondering like you are now and noted in an earlier post, you could then start to experiment and have a reasonable base line for comparisons to check out your ideas.

This idea is not prefect, but without a measurable base line to start with, you will likely just be spinning your wheels with your modification ideas.

IMO your base line is the most important consideration for you right now, and without it to compare too, you are just guessing. You already know you need a good match, you can tell what that looks like using your analyzer, and your antenna shows a good SWR already, but the bandwidth you get is not similar to what the manufacture has suggested. Just like you are, I would question such results, both good and bad in this case.

Something just isn't quite right yet, and if your current match and bandwidth were closer to what I see with my S4, then I would say you have a good base line to start with, and then you can do your experiments with other ideas, like playing with a longer radiator, adding a balun, top hat or no, and isolation. Also try and remain consistent with the height you are working at during the process of testing.

Don't do like I did, constantly changing height around. Reason is now I don't always have reliable data in my files or antenna notes to compare fairly.

Good luck.
 
Homer, what I see is your antenna resonance changing wildly as the feed line length changes, and that suggests feedline transformation.

Is your mast isolated from the antenna?
Yes
Is your choke included in your working feed line, or is it terminated at both ends so it can be added or removed?
included
If the choke is removable, have you compared using it with your 1/2 wave resonant line to see if it made a difference to the match?
The SWR plots above are one on the feedline, the other on the 1/2 wave jumper
What happened to the match when you lowered the antenna and tried to tune it better?
I had to lay the thing over each time I adjusted it. It is too tall to work from the stand on the mast.
What did you adjust, how far did you move, and in what direction? Which working line did you use in this tuning process?
Gamma rod only for a while, then the dog bone/tap, and the rod. small amounts at a time.
I only recorded the final readings of the day.
 
I am thinking as you have suggested. I am going to go directly to the manual and redo the thing exactly as it is sold. I will have to redo my Gamma Match dog bone.
The height is stable at 27.5' exactly for every measurement. I never checked it against the feedline to the shack until I was done for the day and put the tools away.

Probably Thurs or Fri before I can get back to it. I have a long day at the job today.
 
I added the capability of adjusting the length of the radials. I now have them a standard New V4k 106'5".

I did not have the time this evening to remake the gamma tapping strap . . . tomorrow.

I can say that there is a very noticeable difference in the receive on the Q2V4k and the dipole even as it is.
Today I had only the time to fasten the ring to the radial mounts with self-drilling screws. Tomorrow I will replace them with some stainless steel screws and nuts.

V4101d_zps1df901af.jpg
V4104d_zps0f68bc3e.jpg
 
Okay.
I got the dimensions adjusted to specs, and then I made a new Gamma Match.
I felt the old one wasn't handling this antenna properly, so I made a bigger/beefier one.
The new Gamma is a virtual copy of the old dimensions, with exceptions as noted below:

tube -------- 5/8" diameter x 17" long (as opposed to 1/2" x 17")
rod --------- 1/2" diameter x 30" long (as opposed to 3/8" x 33")

I also made a new dog bone/strap from 1/8" x 3/4" aluminum flat bar with the tube to rod centers length @ 6" (as opposed to 5.25").
The Gamma Rod length is pulled out from the tip of the rod back to the sleeve tube top 23". The Dog Bone is set
from the bottom radials bracket up the Vertical Radiator to a distance of 33".

V40564_zps83f1adf9.jpg
V40566_zpsab4cac31.jpg


I put the MFJ-259b on the antenna with the E1/2ƛ jumper and measured for with the antenna tower standing in the air and feed point at 27.5" height these results:

V40557_zps3e9fa7c8.jpg
V40558_zpsfe296eaa.jpg


V40559_zps0ec2da44.jpg
V40560_zps18f85c78.jpg


V40561_zpsb66833cd.jpg
V40562_zpsd6b00fdd.jpg


I then went into the shack with the coax feedline back on the antenna and with the analyzer measured the results from there:

V40571_zps8b3b6e41.jpg
V40570_zps750cff5f.jpg


V40569_zps7766971c.jpg
V40568_zps9cf833ca.jpg


V40567_zps9f3c1f35.jpg


"Feelin' so much betta"
 
Okay.
I got the dimensions adjusted to specs, and then I made a new Gamma Match.
I felt the old one wasn't handling this antenna properly, so I made a bigger/beefier one.
The new Gamma is a virtual copy of the old dimensions, with exceptions as noted below:

tube -------- 5/8" diameter x 17" long (as opposed to 1/2" x 17")
rod --------- 1/2" diameter x 30" long (as opposed to 3/8" x 33")

I also made a new dog bone/strap from 1/8" x 3/4" aluminum flat bar with the tube to rod centers length @ 6" (as opposed to 5.25").
The Gamma Rod length is pulled out from the tip of the rod back to the sleeve tube top 23". The Dog Bone is set
from the bottom radials bracket up the Vertical Radiator to a distance of 33".

V40564_zps83f1adf9.jpg

Homer the only dimensions I have for the gamma on the New Vector 4000, does not agree with what you are suggesting here. However I could be wrong, because all the info I have for the New Vector 4000, comes from Bob's posted dimensions noted below.

Where did you get the dimensions that you posted above?

Did you also change the way the gamma mounts at the bottom too? The picture above doesn't show the full gamma. Earlier I posted a question if maybe the cooper fittings at the base of the gamma could be a problem, in case the matching using the 259b didn't work out as expected.

Vector New 4000 (336x640).jpg

Another point regarding your dog bone idea. I think I've said this before also. If your new antenna has radials 107" inches long, and you're using a hoop that is 30" inches in diameter, then the radials will naturally be set closer to the radiator vs. when using shorter radials. So maybe your shorter dog bone would be the way you have to go with the longer radials. That would be something you would just have to measure, because Bob did not include that dimension in his post above.
 
The gamma I was using was the product of previous discussions regarding the Sigma/Vector antennas that were forwarded to me as a suggestion to get the antenna to match. I could achieve a low SWR with it, but I could not do so with the current length of the antenna, nor could I get anywhere near the match it is showing where I talk on the band as shown above - 27.387-- 1.0:1 -- R56 -- X0, and 27.564 -- 1.0:1 -- R54 -- x0.

The bandwidth seems more under control, too, perhaps indicating less potential loss.

I used this length for the radials on the original Qv4k, and the dog bone was 6" centered on that one.

I did change the bottom of the Gamma tube so that it directly connects to the feedpoint without any brass fittings.

I do expect the 85' coax feed into the shack to affect the readings on the MF259b. The manufacturers said it would lead to inaccuracies in the readings, but I checked them anyhow.
 
Marconi,
Here is where I got those dimensions, more or less:

http://www.worldwidedx.com/cb-antennas/31799-avanti-sigma4-alternative-view-point-14.html#post226120

Also, today as I was working a little DX on the Q2v4k, I had someone call for me. As it turned out this fellow was ENE of me about 40 miles. I switched off to the dipole and he dropped down right into my noise floor, I switched back to the Q2v4k and he was back into my receive with no trouble.
I did not get so many bars on him either way, but the audible difference was significant.
In every case so far I have noticed a perceivable difference in the increased receive on the Vector.

You'll notice the radials length is 106.5"
and the Gamma Match is 17-13/8" lengthx 1/2" diameter and the rod is 33-7/8" length x 1/4" diameter
 
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Marconi,
Here is where I got those din=mensions, more or less:

http://www.worldwidedx.com/cb-antennas/31799-avanti-sigma4-alternative-view-point-14.html#post226120

Also, today as I was working a little DX on the Q2v4k, I had someone call for me. As it turned out this fellow was ENE of me about 40 miles. I switched off to the dipole and he dropped down right into my noise floor, I switched back to the Q2v4k and he was back into my receive with no trouble.
I did not get so many bars on him either way, but the audible difference was significant.

In every case so far I have noticed a perceivable difference in the increased receive on the Vector.

Homer, what does more or less mean in this context? Are you trying to set your new antenna up to specs or not?

In the beginning of my words on this subject, I told you I would not be talking about your radio performance using your new antenna, it would be more about analyzer results, match, and bandwidth issues, something we could measure. As I recall your match was good enough to safely work your radio, and that was good enough for me.

However, after you tested the match with your analyzer...I was thinking the issue was more about why it turned out the 259b did not tell a story like we both might hope for, and what could we do to try and find a base line for comparisons with some other ideas you had. I was trying to address those issues with you, and that required me to ask some questions.

Your comments above are just playing games with me again, simply because you do not like to be questioned I fear.

This could have been a learning experience for us both, I can't do this work any more and I don't have a mind to play games with you...and you just trying to be cute. You don't answer the questions I ask, and you seem upset with my asking.

I don't know if it is possible to ever get such an antenna setup to act like your dummy load using various line lengths, but that is what I would strive to get closer to.

I've said about all I can constructively add anyway.

Good luck.
 

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