Winmor

[Moleculo]

Is anyone else here using Winmor to send / receive digital messages yet? I just set it up yesterday and starting messing with it. I haven't sent any messages yet, but I should get that done today. It seems pretty easy to get going, no TNC needed to send near Pactor 3 speed messages. It finally seems ready for prime-time

 

[hookedon6]

well, i guess we will just have to disagree about this software.

(rant on)

just what we need on hf. a 2 Kc wide winmor station slugging it out with a 2.7 Kc wide winlink QRMbot.

i don't think it is even legal on HF. it's just a "poor mans" WINSTINK 2000,..... oops,......... winLINK 2000 ,because you now don't have to buy the expensive wl2k scs modem http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVITpgbtLgjYAuJYPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTEyZWJ1dWxwBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMjAEY29sbwNyZTQEdnRpZAMEbANXUzE-/SIG=133v20rv4/EXP=1270666089/**http%3A//www.sailblogs.com/member/southafricanmaritimemobilenet/%3FxjMsgID=107853 commercial e-mail doesn't belong on the amateur bands, there are available commercial providers for that, part 97 prohibits this activity 97.113 (2) & (5)

this is just another attempt by steve waterman (k4cjx) to get free email for the sailboat types.

(rant off)

 

[Moleculo]

Commercial email doesn't belong on the ham bands, but personal email is no different than personal talking or personal CW'ing. The Winlink system is not commercial, either.

this is just another attempt by steve waterman (k4cjx) to get free email for the sailboat types.

Actually that couldn't be farther from the truth. Winmor was specifically sponsored and developed first and foremost for MARS use, and has been in testing in the MARS services since it's early inception before it was ever released for testing to the Amateur community. You'll notice that Steve (K4CJX) also has an Army MARS callsign AAA9AC.

Why don't you think it's legal for the amateur hf bands? The Winmor software TNC has the ability to monitor frequency usage and even warns you that the frequency is in use if you decide to key it up. It uses SSB for it's transmissions and is a maximum of 1600Hz wide. That's far more narrow than phone.

It's also perfectly legal on the HF military bands Don't forget that lots of stuff is perfectly "legal" on the HF bands that may not be acceptable in the Amateur service. The FCC doesn't have any jurisdiction over MARS activities where Winmor is becoming the preferred method of message traffic handling for those that don't want to drop $1K on a Pactor 3 SCS modem.

For my Jeep station that gets used in the desert and mountains where there is no cell or internet service, this is a terrific application. Without having to carry a bulky TNC, I can now plug in a little cheap netbook and get a message to/from my family. Since it's email, I can even get a text message to my wife's phone if I really needed to. It's perfect for a personal emergency communication setup.

Try it out & you'll see it's not the big, bad, evil thing that you might think.

 

[C2]

Something just seems wrong with me being able to carry on a text communication with non-hams using the amateur bands to connect to commercial services (e-mail and cellular SMS).

What would be the difference if D-Star had digital voice hooks to the cellular network?

 

[C2]

Is there a system block diagram of how winslink and winmor work?

 

[Moleculo]

Something just seems wrong with me being able to carry on a text communication with non-hams using the amateur bands to connect to commercial services (e-mail and cellular SMS).

What would be the difference if D-Star had digital voice hooks to the cellular network?

There is no difference between what winmor / winlink does and this scenario: You check into a 75 meter traffic net by voice, tell a station in some other city that you have 3rd party traffic for someone at that location who is not a ham, and then asking that ham to relay your message by voice to the other individual. That is perfectly legal. That is what Winmor/Winlink does only digitally. If your wife asked you to relay a message for my wife to me while we were talking on the air, do you think that is illegal? It's not, just in case you were wondering :tongue:

 

[Moleculo]

Is there a system block diagram of how winslink and winmor work?

I'll see if I can find something; if not, I'll create one. Remember, Winmor is just a "software TNC". It's a protocol to facilitate winlink.

 

[SR385]

I *hate* Winlink....

But...not for the principal of what they are trying to do. it's the implementation.

The biggest issue I have is the closed protocol, closed software and the previous requirement for a proprietary $1500 modem to be able to monitor the traffic or send traffic.

I still feel it's very close to encryption for comfort and I just *know* that the enclosed email traffic violates the terms of amateur band use. The biggest local proponents abuse the service with email content that isn't within the spirit of amateur radio...so I'm basing my assumptions on their example.

I still have a lot of issues with it in amateur service, but I will concede that this is a step in the right direction.

What I haven't looked into is if this is open source where they have finally disclosed the protocol properly or not.

 

[hookedon6]

Commercial email doesn't belong on the ham bands, but personal email is no different than personal talking or personal CW'ing. The Winlink system is not commercial, either.

...and how do you absolutely prevent "commercial" e-mail on your mail server?
anything that links amateur radio to the internet IS commercial.



Actually that couldn't be farther from the truth. Winmor was specifically sponsored and developed first and foremost for MARS use, and has been in testing in the MARS services since it's early inception before it was ever released for testing to the Amateur community. You'll notice that Steve (K4CJX) also has an Army MARS callsign AAA9AC.


... yes, it was, and it needs to STAY on those freqs and off the amateur bands.



Why don't you think it's legal for the amateur hf bands?

...97.113 (2) & (5)

The Winmor software TNC has the ability to monitor frequency usage and even warns you that the frequency is in use if you decide to key it up.

... so does WINSTINK, but waterman has ordered the PMBO's to TURN OFF THE BUSY DETECTION.
winSTINK PMBO's just fire up in P1 on top of ongoing QSO's and then shift to the WIDE P3 mode with out listening.

It uses SSB for it's transmissions and is a maximum of 1600Hz wide.
That's far more narrow than phone.

... no, it's 2 Kc wide max

It's also perfectly legal on the HF military bands Don't forget that lots of stuff is perfectly "legal" on the HF bands that may not be acceptable in the Amateur service.

... agreed, it needs to stay off the amateur bands

The FCC doesn't have any jurisdiction over MARS activities

... say what???

where Winmor is becoming the preferred method of message traffic handling for those that don't want to drop $1K on a Pactor 3 SCS modem.

... are you talking about that proprietary SCS modem that is required,

.... the one that amateurs are required to buy (no, you can't build it, waterman has stated that he will sue anyone that attempts to build one) before they can use the amateur freqs.

For my Jeep station that gets used in the desert and mountains where there is no cell or internet service, this is a terrific application. Without having to carry a bulky TNC, I can now plug in a little cheap netbook and get a message to/from my family.

... PSK works fine for that and it is narrow banded

Since it's email, I can even get a text message to my wife's phone if I really needed to. It's perfect for a personal emergency communication setup.

... again, read part 97

Try it out & you'll see it's not the big, bad, evil thing that you might think.

hey, this is almost as good as the posts about winstink on the 'ZED

 

[C2]

There is no difference between what winmor / winlink does and this scenario: You check into a 75 meter traffic net by voice, tell a station in some other city that you have 3rd party traffic for someone at that location who is not a ham, and then asking that ham to relay your message by voice to the other individual. That is perfectly legal. That is what Winmor/Winlink does only digitally. If your wife asked you to relay a message for my wife to me while we were talking on the air, do you think that is illegal? It's not, just in case you were wondering :tongue:

This is where I need a better understanding of how the system works. I invision it as a digital broadcast being received by equipment that is connected to the Internet and ultimately cellular SMS. So, with there being only two people on the planet, you and your wife, you would essentially send the communication directly to her without a secondary control op. to receive and process the message.

 

[C2]

...and how do you absolutely prevent "commercial" e-mail on your mail server?
anything that links amateur radio to the internet IS commercial.

They have an email white list.

APRS is also connected to the internet. Is that illegal too?



I tried to find where else it may be illegal, looking at all one-way comms, message forwarding, etc., but cannot really find an absolute rule.

The rest of the arguments I've read are based on operating practice, not the concept.

It's difficult to accept ...97.113 (2) & (5) since, (2) where is anyone getting paid for the transmission, and (5) is the comm regular and could it really be reasonably furnished by a commercial service? This is even more problematic since just about any basic amateur radio comm could be reasonably provided by other radio services.

The one that gets it is 97.115 (c) with all its intent...


I consider sending a digital email/text message as a one-way transmission, which does not seem to be authorized (or where does it fit?):

Permitted One-Way comms:

(41) Space telemetry. A one-way transmission from a space station of measurements made from the measuring instruments in a spacecraft, including those relating to the functioning of the spacecraft.

(43) Telecommand. A one-way transmission to initiate, modify, or terminate functions of a device at a distance.

(45) Telemetry. A one-way transmission of measurements at a distance from the measuring instrument.

(b) In addition to one-way transmissions specifically authorized elsewhere in this Part, an amateur station may transmit the following types of one-way communications:
(1) Brief transmissions necessary to make adjustments to the station;
(2) Brief transmissions necessary to establishing two-way communications with other stations;
(3) Telecommand;
(4) Transmissions necessary to providing emergency communications;
(5) Transmissions necessary to assisting persons learning, or improving proficiency in, the international Morse code;
(6) Transmissions necessary to disseminate information bulletins;
(7) Transmissions of telemetry.

(b) An amateur station shall not engage in any form of broadcasting, nor may an amateur station transmit one-way communications except as specifically provided in these rules; nor shall an amateur station engage in any activity related to program production or news gathering for broadcasting purposes, except that communications directly related to the immediate safety of human life or the protection of property may be provided by amateur stations to broadcasters for dissemination to the public where no other means of communication is reasonably available before or at the time of the event.

(e) An auxiliary station may transmit one-way communications.

(g) A beacon may transmit one-way communications.

(e) A space station may transmit one-way communications.

(d) A telecommand station may transmit one-way communications.

 

[Moleculo]

It's not one way transmission because the other station responding to the request to send is also a licensed amateur (or military if you're on that plan). It's an ARQ mode, so the stations chatter back and forth acknowledging that they have received the message as sent. They both ID. Then the receiving station decides what it needs to do with the message, whether that is to send it to another amateur station or send it off to the internet. The sending Winmor station is not connecting directly to another SMS or outside service.

If APRS type of activity is permitted, Winlink/Winmor certainly is, as well. I agree that amateur stations should not be using this for commercial gain/purposes. Sending an email to my wife for personal reasons, isn't a commercial purpose. Third party traffic has always been allowed on the amateur bands.

The FCC doesn't have any jurisdiction over MARS activities

... say what???

I'm confused. Are you agreeing with me or disputing me? The FCC has no jurisdiction over the Military and their use of the RF spectrum. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

 

[Moleculo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by hookedon6
...and how do you absolutely prevent "commercial" e-mail on your mail server?
anything that links amateur radio to the internet IS commercial.

They have an email white list.

The winlink system will only accept email into it from stations that were first sent to by an amateur/military station. In other words, you can't spam me, unless I emailed you first using winlink.

Winmor has a maximum bandwidth of 1.6khz. Where are you getting 2Khz from?

 

[doctor]

I have glanced at the use of WINMOR, I presume it is for point to point comms, ur call to another call only, I wonder if you have tried it???, also where do you download it, I might give it a try, using the soundcard for a tnc is great<I use it no interface involved>....

I see various stations using it on YAHOO group some 2 thousand registered, how many use it one never knows..

DOCTOR 795

 

[Moleculo]

I have glanced at the use of WINMOR, I presume it is for point to point comms, ur call to another call only, I wonder if you have tried it???, also where do you download it, I might give it a try, using the soundcard for a tnc is great<I use it no interface involved>....

I see various stations using it on YAHOO group some 2 thousand registered, how many use it one never knows..

DOCTOR 795

Here's the yahoo group where you can download it: WINMOR : WINMOR

You need the RMS Express install (which includes the winmor software tnc) and the ITS Propagation programs, at a minimum. Those are the only two that I downloaded and installed.

You can use it for point to point comms, or for sending email from RMS Express on your station to another station that is acting as a mail gateway from RF to the internet. I have tried it and it works good.