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Coax length on mag mount question

Does kirchoffs law apply to RF? RF does some funny things. The only way for RF to appear on the braid is for the driven element to radiate into the counterpoise or braid instead of working against it. Or do I have it all wrong? RF is not like DC, it doesn't need a return. Like static electricity, it goes from a place where there is more to a place where there is less. Like cold is the absence of heat, heat seeks cold. Dark is the absence of light. No RF is the absence of RF? Or not? Not trying to badger, just trying to learn.
Chris
 
DAYUM,.......... Perhaps there is a reason that an added RF choke on those A99's/IMAX's works better when located about 1/4 wl below the feedpoint;)

RS, I don't recall ever adding a choke to an A99, but I once did a corny video of a test using my VA1 right at the feed point of my A99 which was isolated by a Delrin insulator on top of an aluminum pushup pole. Sorry for the poor camera work and all the shaking. I was filming, more or less in the blind, and could not see what the camera was seeing.

I did not know what to expect if the A99 did not have a feed line attached and was isolated from the ground and from a metal mast. However, I found the match was fine. I was thinking maybe the match would show some notable difference without a feed line attached and the VA1 directly attached to the feed point. Another member had reported earlier he had done a similar test and his A99 match went into the weeds. So this is why I did this video.

 
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Does kirchoffs law apply to RF? RF does some funny things. The only way for RF to appear on the braid is for the driven element to radiate into the counterpoise or braid instead of working against it. Or do I have it all wrong? RF is not like DC, it doesn't need a return. Like static electricity, it goes from a place where there is more to a place where there is less. Like cold is the absence of heat, heat seeks cold. Dark is the absence of light. No RF is the absence of RF? Or not? Not trying to badger, just trying to learn.
Chris

I have a background in electrical work, and RF is on the order of wizardry for me. Noticed the other day my ammeter shows an additional 10 amps - being 25% of its normal draw - when using a full quarter wave antenna as opposed to the loaded President Texas. While I am sure there’s a logical explanation, that kind of stuff blows my mind.
 
Does kirchoffs law apply to RF? RF does some funny things. The only way for RF to appear on the braid is for the driven element to radiate into the counterpoise or braid instead of working against it. Or do I have it all wrong? RF is not like DC, it doesn't need a return. Like static electricity, it goes from a place where there is more to a place where there is less. Like cold is the absence of heat, heat seeks cold. Dark is the absence of light. No RF is the absence of RF? Or not? Not trying to badger, just trying to learn.
Chris

Some very good questions and observations. My own thoughts about the Kirchoff's laws and antennas.

My first thought is every problem I have seen that involves using Kirchoff's laws to calculate and solve for what is happening electrically uses DC circuits. I have never seen AC circuits used in such problems, even in engineering level books. If someone has a reputable link that shows otherwise, I would very much like to see it.

My next thought is AC is different than DC. You hook up a DC circuit, and assuming the values of the components don't change, the readings don't change. With AC, and by extension RF, that is not the case. If you could freeze time and look at the currents going in and out of the nodes, the inputs will always have a different amount of current than the outputs. This is due to the nature of AC.

Building on my last thought, if the currents in an AC circuit are averaged over time, and assuming a steady sine wave (or whatever waveform you are using), the average current going into each node will necessarily equal the current going out of each node, and as we are talking about equal amounts of positive and negative currents over time, this will necessarily balance out to a current of 0.

Taking that a step further, if you modulate the AC signal, and it doesn't matter how, unless that modulation is a consistent steady pattern, will the currents flowing in and out of the nodes always be the same? I want to say no, but I don't have anything to back that up.

Another line of thinking.

Whenever Kirchoff's current law is mentioned when it comes to antennas, it is in referencing the feed point as a single node. This is objectively false. Each wire of the feed line is attached to one and only one wire (or element) at the feed point of the antenna. These connections are never connected directly to each other. Each of these connections is a node, therefore the feed point of an antenna is made up of two separate nodes.

Are these two nodes flowing the same amount of current? For example, if one wire is attached to a 1/2 wavelength element, and the other is attached to one or more 1/4 wavelength elements (lets say four radials for this). One side of the feed point will be presented with high voltage and low current, the other side is presented with high current and low voltage. Can Kirchoff's laws account for this difference on both sides of the feed point?

Can the feed line cause the currents in the two nodes at the feed point of the antenna to be different. I would expect that with a balanced feed line such as ladder line both nodes will have nearly the same amount of current supplied by the feed line, but what about an unbalanced feed line like coax? Again, I want to say no but as of yet I have found nothing to back that up...


The DB
 
Some very good questions and observations. My own thoughts about the Kirchoff's laws and antennas.

My first thought is every problem I have seen that involves using Kirchoff's laws to calculate and solve for what is happening electrically uses DC circuits. I have never seen AC circuits used in such problems, even in engineering level books. If someone has a reputable link that shows otherwise, I would very much like to see it.

My next thought is AC is different than DC. You hook up a DC circuit, and assuming the values of the components don't change, the readings don't change. With AC, and by extension RF, that is not the case. If you could freeze time and look at the currents going in and out of the nodes, the inputs will always have a different amount of current than the outputs. This is due to the nature of AC.

Building on my last thought, if the currents in an AC circuit are averaged over time, and assuming a steady sine wave (or whatever waveform you are using), the average current going into each node will necessarily equal the current going out of each node, and as we are talking about equal amounts of positive and negative currents over time, this will necessarily balance out to a current of 0.

Taking that a step further, if you modulate the AC signal, and it doesn't matter how, unless that modulation is a consistent steady pattern, will the currents flowing in and out of the nodes always be the same? I want to say no, but I don't have anything to back that up.

Another line of thinking.

Whenever Kirchoff's current law is mentioned when it comes to antennas, it is in referencing the feed point as a single node. This is objectively false. Each wire of the feed line is attached to one and only one wire (or element) at the feed point of the antenna. These connections are never connected directly to each other. Each of these connections is a node, therefore the feed point of an antenna is made up of two separate nodes.

Are these two nodes flowing the same amount of current? For example, if one wire is attached to a 1/2 wavelength element, and the other is attached to one or more 1/4 wavelength elements (lets say four radials for this). One side of the feed point will be presented with high voltage and low current, the other side is presented with high current and low voltage. Can Kirchoff's laws account for this difference on both sides of the feed point?

Can the feed line cause the currents in the two nodes at the feed point of the antenna to be different. I would expect that with a balanced feed line such as ladder line both nodes will have nearly the same amount of current supplied by the feed line, but what about an unbalanced feed line like coax? Again, I want to say no but as of yet I have found nothing to back that up...


The DB
Also, the inductance and capacitance of the node itself will cause the current to lag the voltage and vice versa. Concidering this, it is entirely possible that the current going into a node could be reduced as the voltage increases exiting the node. Not trying to split hairs. Just coming up with more questions I guess.
 
RF appears on the braid because it comes out of the antenna jack of the radio.

First of all remember that RF travels on the surface of a conductor, not through it. RF from the antenna socket appears on the inner surface of the braid, not the outer. RF on the outer is caused by common mode RFI.
 
You have quoted me saying RF appears ON the braid. I did not say that RF travels through it, like you implied. Just so there are no more misunderstandings, The outer shield keeps the electromagnetic wave contained ,between the outer shield and the inner conductor while the RF travels from one end of the coax to the other,
 
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Perhaps. I don’t usually bond anything on pickups (including this one) except the hood to firewall. I tend to think a 4 door Dodge Ram has adequate metal, especially with the hood bonded, for that to not be the issue...but perhaps.

Happy Thanksgiving.
Mine had rubber mounts on the bed and cab. I found bonding the two to the frame and running a ground from engine block to frame and battery negative to frame cut out a lot of noise.
 
I run a tram triplemag mount with a TS 350 and now I'm thinking of adding a ground strap from one of the magnet bolts to the roof rack mount bolt hole for a ground?
 

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