Deadkey vs swing

[mackmobile43]

This might be what you've read out of some book somewhere, but apparently you are not actually a radio operator with an active station. Some book (no book presented) may (or may not) state that the situation you suggest will come out as "distortion," but that doesn't mean that "distorted," meaning rough, scratchy, poor, hard to understand audio is what receving stations are going to HEAR out their speakers.

Low dead keys with much larger forward swings is most all AM radios produce and is certainly true of any mosfet-finaled radio on the market these days.

These radios SOUND GREAT !!!!

I LISTEN TO THEM EVERY SINGLE DAY. I TALK ON ONE MYSELF. EVERYBODY SAYS I SOUND GREAT. THAT'S LOUD, CLEAN AND CLEAR.

SORRY. YOUR MATH SUCKS. YOUR BOOK IS WRONG. PRACTICALLY SPEAKING FROM EVERY DAY RADIO USUAGE.


And so we have another highly entertaining thread of "to swing or not to swing," that will no doubt end up costing thousands more lives and millions more dollars. Because the history of those who refuse to learn are doomed to repeat it.

harrumph

We'll be the judge of that.

 

[Simbalage22]

WHOA! look at what I have done LOL...GOOD INFO... Not Complaing, But being this is originally my thread, set the math aside,
what should I set the deadkey at vs swing for everyday use and good sounding radio..my my my... When dealing with clipping and peeking a car rig that doesnt have a dedicated deadkey pot how do you determine dk/swing to the best compared to the factory 4W with best outcome when using an amp, And when running barefoot.. I noticed stock doesnt have much swing, so initially was that purpose to make radios suck, or was the swing left out for the purpose of overmodulating/Undermodulating? I am not new to electronics, but for some reason this deadkey/Swing is bothering me, and for example my Uniden 510.. there isnt a dedicated pot to set the deadkey so this is left to the slugs and coils, at one rate you'll have higher deadkey with less swing, and another with more swing with the loss of deadkey.. Love the insight and info.. but does anyone really know? I know alot of people have hands on with clipping and peeking, as well as amps ect.. I am looking for hands on info. Not text book copy & paste info.. Although the info is nice to read, can we get some hands on know how?

 

[BOOTY MONSTER]

i think earlier in the thread you said your radio was doing 2 and 10 on am . thats close enough . i guess you could raise the deadkey to 2 1/2 watts if you like but it would have a trivial if noticable effect .


LOL , dont worry about what youve 'done" . sometimes thats the course the discussion takes to get to the answers .

 

[W5LZ]

That's the best one I've heard so far! The factory sets things wrong so people can set them right. I give up. There just doesn't seem to be much point in know about any of this, so consider me having forgotten any/every thing I ever knew about radio stuff and all that test equipment I knew about at one time. Educate me! I'm ready!
- 'Doc

 

[BOOTY MONSTER]

hey Crotchety Old Bastard , get you a class c amp (a stroker 2 driving 2 will do) and set the radio to make it dead key 10 watts and swing to about 400-500 watts on your bird meter (it has to be a bird) and youll be half way there . the next step it to get a Mauldulator so you have the asymmetrical modulation and then youll be top shelf , 10-8 and just a getting it , walking the dog and spankin the cat , blowing smoke ....... and stuff like dat .

 

[Simbalage22]

i think earlier in the thread you said your radio was doing 2 and 10 on am . thats close enough . i guess you could raise the deadkey to 2 1/2 watts if you like but it would have a trivial if noticable effect .


LOL , dont worry about what youve 'done" . sometimes thats the course the discussion takes to get to the answers .

Thanks... again I will be purchasing that cable today.. A final note, on car cb's where there are coils and slugs, how do you set them? I know how to tune to max output, as well as clip to overide modulation limitation. I am currently running my 510 barefoot... So how would I adjust the deadkey/Swing power on it to perform to the best it can do?. I am assuming with an amp it'd be like the base as posted earlier? Plz I dont want anyone getting mad, I am not disposing any of the achived info, just question'ing as per what this forum is for.. Got a good idea of the do's and dont's for the base with that amp, and a little insight on modulation... But am confused on where either should go if there isnt an amp at all

 

[secret squirrel]

I will just speak from personal experience and money invested that went into my vast pursuit of the ultimate CB radio that may had gone to other meaningful pursuits such and live entertainmenat and Big Bertha's Topless Donut Shop. I started into the radio thing about 2006. My dad always had a CB in his vehicle pre-cell phone era. I have had radios with the limited clipped and radios with the a swing kit cap mod that made the needle slap when you talked. I have given money to techs looking for the magic mod. I just recent had a radio that was modded extensively that died after about 3 months of heavy usage- I will chaulk it up to experience. Back on subject.
If I remember correctly on the Uniden 510 you have to change a cap or resistor to adjust the deadkey. There is something about the board that if you cut the limiter the recieve goes fuzzy. I have one without a limiter that talks well without the limiter, but you have to turn the squelch up to about noon. I have a Uniden 66 with a Mosfet IR520 final that I had bench check 3 months ago. My friend a tech of 30+ years said,"I see you problem right now, who ever tuned this radio saw you coming. He never removed the limter. It was a waste of money to put the new final in if your not going to have modulation." Before I could say please don't cut the limiter. I heard the "snap." He didn't charge me for the clip and tune. Just for the heck of it I have been running the clipped radio. It has a good noise canceling mic. I run the mic gain at 3 o' clock. Properly tuned antenna. I get loud and proud reports back. Make sure your base antenna and coax is the best you can afford before you adjust the tune on your Cobra 142 to try to get it perfect. I you are not properly transmitting the wattage through the antenna the in application your friends well never know the 2w to 10w versus 4w DK. I run a Lafayette HB640 from 1976 with green LEDs in the meter and channel knob. It runs something like 5w swing to 20w. It is one of the radios I enjoy the most. The better techs tune for a 3:1, 4:1 dey key to modulation. Last point. I have a 1973 Pearce Simpson Pussycat 23. Al "Sparky" was the guy that put the tune on it. The radio does not have a lot of modulation. It is something like 4w-6w. It is all carrier. It still talks well under good conditions. The design of the board that is the best tune it can do. Have fun with the old Cobra.

 

[loosecannon]

well, simbalage, one thing you can tell for sure from this thread is that there's no pleasing everyone with the way your radio sounds.

really depends on who you are talking to doesnt it.
if you were talking to Doc, he would say you sound overmodulated and distorted.
if you were talking to wire weasel he would say you sound great.

think of it like guitar tone.
if you are auditioning for a heavy metal band, and you came in with the most pristine, beautiful clean tone; they would laugh you out the door.

if you auditioned for a jazz band and came in with a big metal crunchy distortion style tone, they would shake their heads and point you right towards the exit.

so which style of music is "right"?
obviously neither is right or wrong, just different and appeals to different people.

you are talking on a CB radio, and most people who talk on CB radios these days like hearing "loud" radios. and yes, by loud, i mean a bit distorted.

some people think a bit of analog distortion sounds good, some cant stand it.
can you tell which one Doc is? LOL

after being in the hobby a while, you get an idea of what "you" want to sound like, and you go for that sound.

right or wrong, its your radio, and its your hobby, so as long as you're not coming over the neighbors' TV, or the church PA system next door; just do what makes you happy.
(please dont lambaste me about spectral purity, as thats not what this discussion is about. you know who you are)



as for the tuning coils in the 510; those variable inductors are basically matching the impedance of the output of one circuit to the input of the next link in the chain.
when you de-tune them to lower the deadkey you are actually messing with the efficiency of the radio and that is not the way to do it.
on a radio like that, to lower the deadkey you need to lower the voltage to the collector of the final transistor.
there are a few ways to do this, but that is a subject for another thread.
LC

 

[Simbalage22]

well, simbalage, one thing you can tell for sure from this thread is that there's no pleasing everyone with the way your radio sounds.

You can say that again

really depends on who you are talking to doesnt it.
if you were talking to Doc, he would say you sound overmodulated and distorted.
if you were talking to wire weasel he would say you sound great.

think of it like guitar tone.
if you are auditioning for a heavy metal band, and you came in with the most pristine, beautiful clean tone; they would laugh you out the door.

if you auditioned for a jazz band and came in with a big metal crunchy distortion style tone, they would shake their heads and point you right towards the exit.

so which style of music is "right"?
obviously neither is right or wrong, just different and appeals to different people.

you are talking on a CB radio, and most people who talk on CB radios these days like hearing "loud" radios. and yes, by loud, i mean a bit distorted.

some people think a bit of analog distortion sounds good, some cant stand it.
can you tell which one Doc is? LOL

after being in the hobby a while, you get an idea of what "you" want to sound like, and you go for that sound.

right or wrong, its your radio, and its your hobby, so as long as you're not coming over the neighbors' TV, or the church PA system next door; just do what makes you happy.
(please dont lambaste me about spectral purity, as thats not what this discussion is about. you know who you are)

Nice way to put it. I am guessing myself I prefer having clean clear modulation. Mainly started the hobbie to talk to wife from car when I am out, So of course I want to be heard loud but clear.. I dont know how many watts will make you "Bleed over" and wont talk when church is in session... Holy, holy, .....Can I get a radio....holy is our lord... check 10-4 LMAO

as for the tuning coils in the 510; those variable inductors are basically matching the impedance of the output of one circuit to the input of the next link in the chain.
when you de-tune them to lower the deadkey you are actually messing with the efficiency of the radio and that is not the way to do it.
on a radio like that, to lower the deadkey you need to lower the voltage to the collector of the final transistor.
there are a few ways to do this, but that is a subject for another thread.
LC

Thanks, This what Ideal to my question, As I know the 142 does have a adjuster for deadkey and power these little ones dont. I know what you mean, the first 510 I clipped the receive was horrible. This one sounds clear clipped which is weird because most of the time it sounds distored when you clip. Thanks for the info you hit the nail on the head

Update: I figured out hidrive means I dont need to lower the deadkey on that 510.. So I am just going to get another texas star regular for base, and use the highdrive in mobile.. For now its just barefoot, and I am guessing low or high deadkey doesnt matter

 

[Simbalage22]

I will just speak from personal experience and money invested that went into my vast pursuit of the ultimate CB radio that may had gone to other meaningful pursuits such and live entertainmenat and Big Bertha's Topless Donut Shop. I started into the radio thing about 2006. My dad always had a CB in his vehicle pre-cell phone era. I have had radios with the limited clipped and radios with the a swing kit cap mod that made the needle slap when you talked. I have given money to techs looking for the magic mod. I just recent had a radio that was modded extensively that died after about 3 months of heavy usage- I will chaulk it up to experience. Back on subject.
If I remember correctly on the Uniden 510 you have to change a cap or resistor to adjust the deadkey. There is something about the board that if you cut the limiter the recieve goes fuzzy. I have one without a limiter that talks well without the limiter, but you have to turn the squelch up to about noon. I have a Uniden 66 with a Mosfet !R520 final that I had bench check 3 months ago. My friend a tech of 30+ years said,"I see you problem right now, who ever tuned this radio saw you coming. He never removed the limter. It was a waste of money to put the new final in if your not going to have modulation." Before I could say please don't cut the limiter. I heard the "snap." He didn't charge me for the clip and tune. Just for the heck of it I have been running the clipped radio. It has a good noise canceling mic. I run the mic gain at 3 o' clock. Properly tuned antenna. I get loud and proud reports back. Make sure your base antenna and coax is the best you can afford before you adjust the tune on your Cobra 142 to try to get it perfect. I you are not properly transmitting the wattage through the antenna the in application your friends well never know the 2w to 10w versus 4w DK. I run a Lafayette HB640 from 1976 with green LEDs in the meter and channel knob. It runs something like 5w swing to 20w. It is one of the radios I enjoy the most. The better techs tune for a 3:1, 4:1 dey key to modulation. Last point. I have a 1973 Pearce Simpson Pussycat 23. Al "Sparky" was the guy that put the tune on it. The radio does not have a lot of modulation. It is something like 4w-6w. It is all carrier. It still talks well under good conditions. The design of the board that is the best tune it can do. Have fun with the old Cobra.

Thanks for the post.. Very good insight and describing personal hands on situations with different types of equipment
Yet another question of debate.. To clip or not to... Shitty little radio's like the 510 I'll clip to get the max out of them, BUT if I am running a linear, I'd rather leave the limiter in place.. Because you can still adjust it for max AM power and STILL have the limiter in place! I got your thread in memory mixed up with loosecannon's because you both responded about the 510

 

[W5LZ]

loosecannon,
I'm afraid you have no idea 'which kind' I am, or why.
The point being that a question was asked, and a response was given. To properly understand why that response was what it was, you have to have at least some understanding of of the proper relationships involved. Those relationships have been established for a very long time, it really doesn't matter if you agree with them or not, they are a fact. They are not 'new', or 'secret', or 'mystical' in any way, they are 'dead nutz', 'dirt' common facts.
It seems like people would try to understand something if they want the 'best' or most out of it, that sure seems logical to me. So since no one seems to want to understand what little I can explain, I won't bother trying to help anymore. Misunderstand and misinterpret to your hearts content!
- 'Doc

 

[Simbalage22]

loosecannon,
I'm afraid you have no idea 'which kind' I am, or why.
The point being that a question was asked, and a response was given. To properly understand why that response was what it was, you have to have at least some understanding of of the proper relationships involved. Those relationships have been established for a very long time, it really doesn't matter if you agree with them or not, they are a fact. They are not 'new', or 'secret', or 'mystical' in any way, they are 'dead nutz', 'dirt' common facts.
It seems like people would try to understand something if they want the 'best' or most out of it, that sure seems logical to me. So since no one seems to want to understand what little I can explain, I won't bother trying to help anymore. Misunderstand and misinterpret to your hearts content!
- 'Doc

Everyone info is valuable, As I am still trying to grasp the concept of deadkey/swing. Although I got a good idea how to set it, all realitive info is awsome ..... Everyone has their own opinion

 

[GnG8d]

loosecannon,
I'm afraid you have no idea 'which kind' I am, or why.
The point being that a question was asked, and a response was given. To properly understand why that response was what it was, you have to have at least some understanding of of the proper relationships involved. Those relationships have been established for a very long time, it really doesn't matter if you agree with them or not, they are a fact. They are not 'new', or 'secret', or 'mystical' in any way, they are 'dead nutz', 'dirt' common facts.
It seems like people would try to understand something if they want the 'best' or most out of it, that sure seems logical to me. So since no one seems to want to understand what little I can explain, I won't bother trying to help anymore. Misunderstand and misinterpret to your hearts content!
- 'Doc

I'm new here, but a carrier of 50% of pep is just insane. It would swing a Bird or decent avg meter backwards, not counting the immense heat you are generating. 50% of avg I can go with, but not 50% of pep.

 

[Simbalage22]

I'm new here, but a carrier of 50% of pep is just insane. It would swing a Bird or decent avg meter backwards, not counting the immense heat you are generating. 50% of avg I can go with, but not 50% of pep.

Hey welcome, So what are you referring to? you mean you like less deadkey? and more swing? sorry for not understanding.. I am now to cb's again.. (5year vacation from them) and getting deeper into how they work, so I can tweak them 100% to the best of their ability while still sounding crystal clear and putting the hammer down!

 

[loosecannon]

too much or too little modulated signal sounds 'bad', and also wastes power and time. You decide how much you want to sound bad and waste power and time

doc, this was the statement from your post that prompted my statement about which side of the fence you reside on.

if i am mistaken in my understanding of this statement, and you actually do enjoy the sound of a slightly overmodulated high-level AM signal, then i rescind my previous statement.

i do not dispute the truth of your post, but i do feel that it is you who has misinterpreted what the question was about.
he did not ask how to make his signal look good on an O-scope; he asked about the best drive levels for his linear amplifier.

you did not address the question, and instead assumed that he would want to know about how an AM signal looks on a scope and why.

in this regard, you missed the point.
were you wrong in your post, no, but you just confused the issue.
in doing so you sidetracked the thread, and left simbalage befuddled about the point of your post.

i merely brought the point home by stating that its a subjective argument as to what sounds good to who.
and BTW, i was just messing with you a bit. loosen up.
hijack over.
LC