Deadkey vs swing

[Simbalage22]

doc, this was the statement from your post that prompted my statement about which side of the fence you reside on.

if i am mistaken in my understanding of this statement, and you actually do enjoy the sound of a slightly overmodulated high-level AM signal, then i rescind my previous statement.

i do not dispute the truth of your post, but i do feel that it is you who has misinterpreted what the question was about.
he did not ask how to make his signal look good on an O-scope; he asked about the best drive levels for his linear amplifier.

you did not address the question, and instead assumed that he would want to know about how an AM signal looks on a scope and why.

in this regard, you missed the point.
were you wrong in your post, no, but you just confused the issue.
in doing so you sidetracked the thread, and left simbalage befuddled about the point of your post.

i merely brought the point home by stating that its a subjective argument as to what sounds good to who.
and BTW, i was just messing with you a bit. loosen up.
hijack over.
LC

Well I didnt realize my thread was indeed hijacked and dont mind, as all knowlege relating to the issue does help.. I was a little confused which is why I asked. My main point was indeed to make my radio the loudest without overmodulating the crap out of it whereas I hear some.. I talk to wife at home from car and want the most bang out of both, without sacrificing quality too much... although I dont mind knowing what this can do on persay a dosy, real world performace is what I am after.. So I got some good responses such as 1/4 of modulated should be deadkey ect.. And 45-55w on the linar deadkey which is exactly what I was after.. Trailing down to what to do as far a deadkey/Swing with the 510.. Which if I get another linear for the base, If the info I found is correct then I should be able to use the hi Drive with a 4w Deadkey without blowing it up in the mobile.. But before i take this info and run with it I wanted to 100% certain and learn more about correctly setting deadkey for barefoot and with power.. Modulation and weather or not to cut the limiter is a matter of opinion and personal taste..

 

[scottdarling1221]

peaks

your supposed to key up to 1/4 of your total peaks and thats only if the rest of the amplifier is setup for it.But its not a must you can key less then that if you wish.I agree keying 50 percent of your peaks is obserd and a waste .

 

[Simbalage22]

your supposed to key up to 1/4 of your total peaks and thats only if the rest of the amplifier is setup for it.But its not a must you can key less then that if you wish.I agree keying 50 percent of your peaks is obserd and a waste .

Well again thats yet another reason I asked because I am a little under 2w and people say its blowing smoke, and its sounding good.. I wanted to know if going a bit higher would make it like above and beyond, yet clean!.... I noticed today I had problems communicating home to the base with my mobile (Uniden 510Xl) so I will have to still find out how to tweak that for max deadkey/Swing because I dont yet have an amp for it... When Car is running it'll deadkey around 3-4 and swing 10-15... So I dunno What I could do to it besides get an amp which would require lowering the deadkey... But several people tell me with a hiDrive I could use even a stock radio with it.. But would that be best possible solution? Basically for now on the mobile I want max barefoot, But want to know when I get an amp where it should be generally set

 

[loosecannon]

you wont gain enough power in the 510 by tuning it up to make any real difference.

adding a 2 pill amp is your best bet.
LC

 

[Simbalage22]

you wont gain enough power in the 510 by tuning it up to make any real difference.

adding a 2 pill amp is your best bet.
LC

I dont know how many 510's you have personally delt with, and I am far from professional with cb's, However clipping and spreading the coil has made a HUGE difference both on a meter and in real world applications.. I am aware a 2 pill would make the world difference with it, however wouldnt the radio need to be tuned for an amp? I asked because I want to know what the most anyone has gotten out of a 510 barefoot, as well as how would this be tuned for an amp.. Someone (may have been you) said the leg on the final had to be modded to drop the deadkey... So I wanted more info on that, and to know if a high drive would work the way it is.. You must have mistaken my question as it wasnt would it make a difference because I know modding it does... Just want the most out of it the way it stands to see if I got it tweaked as high as it can go without overmodulating, or burning out in a short time.. as well as where it should be when involving the 2 pill..There are good mods, and bad ones... I want only the good ones!! I dont want to start another thread on the 510 because its already been touched on here with it being related to setting up deadkey ect.. for amp..

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

I dont know how many 510's you have personally delt with, and I am far from professional with cb's, However clipping and spreading the coil has made a HUGE difference both on a meter and in real world applications.. I am aware a 2 pill would make the world difference with it, however wouldnt the radio need to be tuned for an amp? I asked because I want to know what the most anyone has gotten out of a 510 barefoot, as well as how would this be tuned for an amp.. Someone (may have been you) said the leg on the final had to be modded to drop the deadkey... So I wanted more info on that, and to know if a high drive would work the way it is.. You must have mistaken my question as it wasnt would it make a difference because I know modding it does... Just want the most out of it the way it stands to see if I got it tweaked as high as it can go without overmodulating, or burning out in a short time.. as well as where it should be when involving the 2 pill..There are good mods, and bad ones... I want only the good ones!! I dont want to start another thread on the 510 because its already been touched on here with it being related to setting up deadkey ect.. for amp..

Just my 2¢ worth here but if you want the good mods then go back and put that coil back where it was and reinstall the limiter if that was what you meant by "clipping". All you just did was mess up the filtering and increased the harmonic output of the radio. Clipping the limiter has also contributed to extra harmonics and splatter.The extra harmonics are causing the meter to read higher.Sure the radio probably sounds louder on the air but it will also sound louder to someone 3 channels away too. Add an amp to that and you have the ultimate splatterbox.

 

[Simbalage22]

Just my 2¢ worth here but if you want the good mods then go back and put that coil back where it was and reinstall the limiter if that was what you meant by "clipping". All you just did was mess up the filtering and increased the harmonic output of the radio. Clipping the limiter has also contributed to extra harmonics and splatter.The extra harmonics are causing the meter to read higher.Sure the radio probably sounds louder on the air but it will also sound louder to someone 3 channels away too. Add an amp to that and you have the ultimate splatterbox.

Well USUALLY I wont clip, However with the 510 I want it as loud (distored if you will) as it can possibly go.. As far as the coils go, Thats how you get the max power by spreading them.. Even without clipping, I usually spread the coils, and turn the pots.. dependign on what the sites say..But with the 510, being its so small I am willing to compromise it being a splatter box because its mobile so I dont care if it bleeds over ect... If this is incorrect way, please enlighten me, as I was taught cutting the limiter is a matter of preference (which like I said i Usually dont) but spreading the coils, and tuning the slugs is how you get the max forward power. So far even with the 510 Clipped, Modulation is still clear and understanable.. From radiochecks, as well as talking with wife on my base while she is out... So I dunno.. I know my Cobra Weather radio I had back long ago sounded horrible with the limiter clipped.. I ordered a chinese final and it did 40W without it being clipped.. So I dunno.. I am all ears for the pro's way of making a radio sound good, and the secrets of tweeking.. But sense no one will share, I guess I will go with what my uncle (R.I.P) tought me years and years ago....

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

I learned the hard way about 30 years ago that by "tweeking" the coils in the output stages of a radio did in fact increase the harmonic content of the signal. I then fed the tweeked radio thru a lowpass filter to clean up the TVI and guess what. I had pretty much the same power out of the filter as I had before I messed with the radio. That's why a lot of guys won't use a filter because they think it reduces their power output. I was 17 years old at the time. Since then I studied electronics, worked on many CB's and amateur radios as well as spent 22 years as a commercial broadcast engineer. During those 22 years I learned a LOT of what I thought I knew was was myth and in some cases just plain BS. Guess what I think about messing with the output coils? I also learned about distortion. Contrary to what some people believe, added distortion from any source does NOT add to the intelligibility of the signal,in fact it decreases it regardless of how loud it makes it.

 

[HomerBB]

"Contrary to what some people believe, added distortion from any source does NOT add to the intelligibility of the signal,in fact it decreases it regardless of how loud it makes it."

Sometimes being the loudest, with considerable distortion, is more important than being the most intelligible. Consider politics, for example.

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

Only for those antagonists on the air that just want to be heard and couldn't give a damn about listening. Personally, I grew up a long while ago and do not subscribe to that childish way of thinking. op:

 

[HomerBB]

LOL

 

[loosecannon]

the coils inside a radio that need to be variable are made variable, and the ones that dont need to be are not.

the circuit created by these coils and caps after the final are usually whats called a half wave filter, and it is used because it has the same impedance on the output as it does on the input.
when you spread these coils, you change the impedance on the input, output or both and they no longer match.
this creates harmonics in your signal, meaning you are creating power at 27mhz, but you are also creating power at 54mhz, 108mhz, and so on...

a wattmeter cannot tell the difference between the signal at 27mhz and the harmonics, so it just adds them together.
this is why the wattmeter will read a higher output, but some of that power is not on the frequency you want it to be on.
you're not really gaining anything on the channel you are on.

if there are any variable coils near the final and driver, tune those for max PEP swing while saying "ahhhh" into the mic.
this will ensure that you have efficient transfer from one stage to the next and that the radio is doing all the legitimate power it can.

to lower the deadkey you need to find the anti-spiking diode on the output of the modulation transformer.
if you can take some close up pics of the rear sections of the radio, i can probably point out which part it is.
adding more rectifier diodes in series with this diode will drop the voltage to the collector of the final by .7 volts for each diode you add in series, keep adding diodes until you get the deadkey you want for your amp.

this way, you still have a "peaked" radio, but still get to set the deadkey where you want it.
there are other ways to do the same thing, as all you are doing is lowering the voltage to the collector of the final, but this way is easy to explain and applies to most AM only radios.
LC

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

Loosecannon, another reason those coils in the output stage are made variable is because they work with fixed value components that are +/- a certain tolerance and the variable coils can tune the overall circuit to resonance. Something in those stages needs to be variable and the variable inductor is more stable. Most of them are tuned and then sealed with a wax compound to prevent detuning with temperature and vibration but that wax is no match for a golden screwdriver.

 

[Shockwave]

It seems to me there should be some clarification here between the coils (inductors) used for impedance matching and the inductor used for the 54 MHz trap. The first RF inductor off the final collector is to match the low collector output impedance to 50 ohms. It is correct to adjust this inductor for maximum PEP output and this will not increase harmonics. The second inductor is just a simple 54 MHz trap and should never be adjusted without the ability to measure a reduction in RF content at 54 MHz.

 

[Simbalage22]

It seems to me there should be some clarification here between the coils (inductors) used for impedance matching and the inductor used for the 54 MHz trap. The first RF inductor off the final collector is to match the low collector output impedance to 50 ohms. It is correct to adjust this inductor for maximum PEP output and this will not increase harmonics. The second inductor is just a simple 54 MHz trap and should never be adjusted without the ability to measure a reduction in RF content at 54 MHz.

THANK U...thats the coil i am referring 2. I have a stock 510, and the one I modded and there is a noticable difference, and its not all overmodulated and crappy sounding.. Some said there is no way its barefoot or modded that I was indeed stepping on ppl with amps!!