dipole question

[W5LZ]

Mr. Graham's article is using a varying reference point, a 1/2 wave dipole and an isotropic 1/2 wave dipole. As long as you keep those two references in mind, and taking what's said strictly as it's said, most of the article is factual. If you attempt to draw references to anything given in that and relate it to something else, you'd do well to check a lot further, mainly not just from Mr. Graham's article. I have no idea what he's trying to point out exactly, but a lot of misconception are certainly possible.
- 'Doc

 

[Needle Bender]

Mr. Graham's article is using a varying reference point, a 1/2 wave dipole and an isotropic 1/2 wave dipole. As long as you keep those two references in mind, and taking what's said strictly as it's said, most of the article is factual. If you attempt to draw references to anything given in that and relate it to something else, you'd do well to check a lot further, mainly not just from Mr. Graham's article. I have no idea what he's trying to point out exactly, but a lot of misconception are certainly possible.
- 'Doc

i was just refering to him showing a graph of the gain you get when you add more elements to a colinear like if you wanted to add some 1/2 waves to your dipole with phazing stubs

 

[KASZ 9113]

Thanks for the correction Needle Bender, and W5LZ has some great points also. But let's remember, 522 wants to DX, and with a horizontal polarized dipole, to get the needed take off angle, he needs to be up more than 30 feet. Like 130 feet. Dipoles are meant to be simple. Have not seen a reply from 522 lately to see how the horizontal worked out for DX. Like I mentioned, dipoles feed on height, and kw's. Results can be achieved with a low power rig, but you still have got to get the thing "up" in the air. All in all, great dialog from all. Glad I found this forum!

 

[W5LZ]

And also keep in mind that signals arrive at all angles, not just low ones. That means that those supposed high angle 'cloud warmer' antennas can pick up those signals just like the antennas with very low TOA's, and better at times.
- 'Doc

 

[BJ radionut]

" inverted V's need to be up there and power to really get out."op:

That statement could not be further from the truth!
All the Best
BJ

 

[wavrider]

Doc hit it on the nail head, like he usually does, on the angle of arrival of signals. that is why contest stations will usually have several yagis at diferent heights to be able to work different areas of the world depending on which is the better AOA.

The majority agree it is usually the highest yagi that gets the best RX and TX, but not always.

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

" inverted V's need to be up there and power to really get out."op:

That statement could not be further from the truth!
All the Best
BJ

Very true. I guess my 80m inverted Vee with ladder line taped to the tower no less, with ends about two feet off the ground really didn`t work Barnaul Siberia on 20m using 12 watts of carrier on AM after all. I guess it also didn`t work hundreds of stations in Europe, Africa, South America, or the few dozen in the South Pacific either. It sure had me fooled.

 

[KASZ 9113]

Hey Capt. kw., thats great. I'm not doubting you on that. But lets see you talk to Siberia on a inverted v cut to length for 11 meters with your 12 watts. Your not going to far on 11 meters AM with 12 watts, let alone Europe or Africa. And NO, the great solar cycle (or whatever YOU want to call it) is not here yet to talk Excellent DX on 11 meters. And I should also correct myself by saying a horiz. polarized dipole needs to be up there. Hence, the thing about the takeoff angle. The higher the better. I thought this was a CB or 11 meter dipole question? All I was stating, and I am no expert on anything, is what I did and what worked for me. And wavrider, your riding the wrong wave. Did not see anywhere that 522 was using a yagi. "The majority agree it is usually the highest yagi that gets the best RX and TX," (Hmm, yagi, usually horiz., Hmm, ya gotta get it up there.) A yagi is not a speaker wire dipole. How does that yagi work for you at less than 30 feet on 11 meters? All 522 want's to know is what will work the best DX with his dipole. At my location, a horizontal flat top at 8 feet did not work for me for DX. To many trees and buildings. So I went to the inverted v at approx. 40 foot to my balun connection and now I can talk local just fine and DX when mother nature permits. My DX also works better with the 1200 whiskeys running than barefoot. So, it's my guess, that Beatle hit it on the head, not Doc, and that was, to put it up in some configuration for a week. If it doesn't do what you want it to do, try something else. It is simply amazing on how "some" people can totally over complicate and over engineer a simple dipole antenna made from speaker wire. I always thought it was really cool to make the same contacts with my $30 dipole as the person with the $250 or better antenna given the right DX conditions for me. Can't we all just get along?

 

[Beetle]

The "great solar cycle" might not be here, but I've been working on ten meters with about ten watts for several weeks, getting good reports from all continents on CW and some SSB. The present antenna is a 40 meter dipole about 20 feet high fed with open line through a very good matching network.

I was first licensed in 1959, when the last really GREAT "solar cycle" was at its peak. I've seen the best conditions - and the worst. Right now, with that dipole, I'm hearing Europe AND Asia at the same time.

 

[KASZ 9113]

As stated earlier, I am by no means, an expert, nor do I claim to be. For my setup on 11 meters, I DX, Mother Nature permitting, just fine, with my inverted v 40 ft. up. The original question was, "what works best", and that was all I was trying to answer was what is working for me right now. If you are talking into Europe on 11 meters AM, than please share your set up with us. I do not doubt any of you or your claims as to what you can or can't do with your rigs. With my set up, a Midland 13-858 23 channel peaked and tuned, a RM kl 35 driving a Witch Dr. 400 to 1200 watts max, which I have tuned through a Murch UT-2000A transmatch (only to experiment with the dipole, not a permanent setup), that I monitor with my MFJ 870 GrandMaster meter, and I can't reach Europe. I've even turned my dipole from N to S to E to W. From the North Coast, (OH.), I can "hear" stations in the Indies and Bahammas, even Jamaica, but I can never TX back. Don't know why. My best guess is the low gain of the dipole, but I'm not sure. Any advice would be appreciated. But if your world wide, please do tell how you are doing it. In closing, hey 522 this is what works best for me, and I'm done beating this horse.

 

[Beetle]

Not on AM; I haven't used it for years. 10 watts PEP on sideband and CW doing just fine for me from Washington State. Africa is the most difficult, but a few well-placed and timed calls are usually successful. And 90% of what I can hear, I can work. Rig is an IC-738.

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

Hey Capt. kw., thats great. I'm not doubting you on that. But lets see you talk to Siberia on a inverted v cut to length for 11 meters with your 12 watts. Your not going to far on 11 meters AM with 12 watts, let alone Europe or Africa. And NO, the great solar cycle (or whatever YOU want to call it) is not here yet to talk Excellent DX on 11 meters. And I should also correct myself by saying a horiz. polarized dipole needs to be up there. Hence, the thing about the takeoff angle. The higher the better. I thought this was a CB or 11 meter dipole question? All I was stating, and I am no expert on anything, is what I did and what worked for me. And wavrider, your riding the wrong wave. Did not see anywhere that 522 was using a yagi. "The majority agree it is usually the highest yagi that gets the best RX and TX," (Hmm, yagi, usually horiz., Hmm, ya gotta get it up there.) A yagi is not a speaker wire dipole. How does that yagi work for you at less than 30 feet on 11 meters? All 522 want's to know is what will work the best DX with his dipole. At my location, a horizontal flat top at 8 feet did not work for me for DX. To many trees and buildings. So I went to the inverted v at approx. 40 foot to my balun connection and now I can talk local just fine and DX when mother nature permits. My DX also works better with the 1200 whiskeys running than barefoot. So, it's my guess, that Beatle hit it on the head, not Doc, and that was, to put it up in some configuration for a week. If it doesn't do what you want it to do, try something else. It is simply amazing on how "some" people can totally over complicate and over engineer a simple dipole antenna made from speaker wire. I always thought it was really cool to make the same contacts with my $30 dipole as the person with the $250 or better antenna given the right DX conditions for me. Can't we all just get along?

Sure we can all get along. i just don't like blanket statements that are full of holes presented as fact that's all. Dipoles do NOT have to be high and fed with kilowatts to work some really good DX especially on the higher bands like 10/11m. Height is a function of wavelength and not just simply feet. Most people that are new to DX'ing start out reading about TOA and get far too wrapped up in something they do not fully understand. When they hear that a dipole at a certain height has a TOA of 25 degrees they think, Oh my.That's not so good for really long haul DX. I need it a lot higher to get that TOA down to 10 degrees or so. What they fail to realize is that while the peak power may be at 25 degrees, the power at 10 degrees may be only 3-6 dB down from that. That means that signals arriving/departing at that angle will only be one S-unit down from maximum. Hardley anything to worry about. Where height selection really begins to make a difference is on an antenna with higher gain that has a much flatter pattern in the forward direction where it may not be able to cover both high and low angle signals very well.

 

[KASZ 9113]

OK Capt. Kw OK. Don't beat me up. I never said it was gospel or anything like that, just what I understand and what I'm doing. It also appears that you have been doing this awhile longer than myself. That being said, and while I have your attention, here's a question that I have; When I tune my dipole for a certain frequency, I'm using 27.085, channel 11, I'm at 1.2 swr. When I hit the amps, it goes up to 3:1, not good. What am I doing wrong or what, in your opinion is causing this to occur? Should I re-tune the dipole through the amps? What would you suggest that I do to correct this problem? :headbang

 

[522]

holy moly ! look what happens when you go out of town for the weekend ! lol. I will admit, I havent read thru every post yet, just noticed there were some good contributions thus far.

i will read thru them all, and report back.

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

OK Capt. Kw OK. Don't beat me up. I never said it was gospel or anything like that, just what I understand and what I'm doing. It also appears that you have been doing this awhile longer than myself. That being said, and while I have your attention, here's a question that I have; When I tune my dipole for a certain frequency, I'm using 27.085, channel 11, I'm at 1.2 swr. When I hit the amps, it goes up to 3:1, not good. What am I doing wrong or what, in your opinion is causing this to occur? Should I re-tune the dipole through the amps? What would you suggest that I do to correct this problem? :headbang

I'm not trying to beat you or anyone up. You said something that was presented as fact and I disputed it that's all.

BTW, you are correct in how long I have been at it. I started when I was 14 and I am now 48. You do the math. Somewhere between 14 and 48 I found time to spend 22 years in the engineering department of a commercial AM/FM broadcasting company so my experience is not limited to CB/ham radio.

As for your antenna issue, leave it alone. Tune the antenna with just the radio. The SWR is reading higher with the amp due to harmonics. Your meter cannot tell the difference between 27 MHz and 54 or 81 MHz and reads it as high SWR. This assumes of course that you are recalibrating the meter after switching to higher power.