• You can now help support WorldwideDX when you shop on Amazon at no additional cost to you! Simply follow this Shop on Amazon link first and a portion of any purchase is sent to WorldwideDX to help with site costs.
  • Click here to find out how to win free radios from Retevis!

Marconi's New 2011 testing on same AT system

I'm not taking any sides on this one. I see Marconi has invested a good deal of time in his recent tests. While I would do some things differently, I don't see any benefit in picking on him. It appears his only motivation was to share his finding with us the best he could.

Having said that, I must admit I'm having trouble making any sense of the results. For all practical purposes we are seeing an antenna that has one of the lowest gains possible (unity gain half wave A99) beating one of the highest gains verticals. I sure can't replicate that.

SW, I'll check my video library. I think I did a video while I was testing the Sigma4 and the A99. Problem is these vids may be longer than Youtube allows (10 min), so I may not be able to post them.

I think I proved to myself, at least, that my testing side by side didn't seem to suggest any detectable reactions between the antenna signals that I receive here, but in hopes to give you guys a bit more to look at...I stopped that. Now I'm testing one at a time, but it's like watching paint dry on a ugly pink picket fence, and my Signal Reports are still "what you see is what I see," baring my errors in reading signals of course.

I think my older signal reports in my album also show something similar regarding the effectiveness of my A99, which is nothing special...it just dates back to the early 90's with the original owner who sold it to me for $5.00 saying it was broke. It only had water in it, because he caulked the feed point up when he installed it about 2-3 years earlier. His loss my gain, but I took a chance it was really broken too. I've reconditioned it many times since then including reinforcing the hub connections, which tend to work loose over time.

I don't have the detection equipment you might use, but do you see my reports as totally off the wall and valueless, like other's have suggested? I don't know at this point what I could do. The way I see it, I don't for a minute think "anyone" else here, that tells us he has tested, is doing much different and their reports are just words.

I wish I could explain the A99 issue, but I can't. I'm just as surprised, even though this is not the first time I've see similar results. When I realize this showed up on my Signal Reports several years ago, I immediately emailed Bob85 and told him what I noticed. He too, was not impressed and dismissed the idea. If it had been**** me on the receiving end of something different than I had previously experienced, I would be asking myself some questions, and then trying to figure out why or how I could duplicate such results, even while I understand the hesitance in considering such wild ideas.

I also own a Wolf 50_11m, a 1/2 wave vertical that looks very much like an old Ringo antenna. I never could get that thing to tune with a low SWR, with or without radials attached. Even so, that antenna proved in similar testing, side-by-side to make a very nice local RX signal as well. I don't have any records on it, because I was thinking that the bad tune would affect the performance badly. It proved me wrong on many comparison test working in the range of 1.7:1 and higher, but again...it never failed to make a better signal no matter what was stacked up beside it.

I've talked about the Wolf 50_1m before, but I never had much confidence in my thinking to make an issue of it until now, even still I cannot explain why. The only thing I told Eddie Chicconi about my experience with it, was that most would not get excited with any antenna that they attempted to tune close to the ground, and on raising as little as 3' feet additional...they would see a considerable change in the match that would not get better on raising up higher. He told me it was due to the matching coil size and that he would send me another, but that never happened. One of the bolts on the antenna mounting bracket where this coil attachés is also defective by design and strips the two or three threads provided. I suggested that part should at the very least have a nice think nut welded over that hole in order to provide the screw depth necessary to hold the bolt attaching the tuning coil to the base mount. Nothing was ever done about that either, so to this day that $100 antenna remains broke and out of service.

I tell this story to help folks understand that Marconi has been saying much the same thing for years and that prior to the video's all I could do is post words. But even now with the videos, there is still doubt and a gillion reasons why what is seen cannot be true else the viewer has to change his mind. I find that to be a bit closed minded to say the least.

IMG_0959 (480x640).jpg
 
I'm not taking any sides on this one. I see Marconi has invested a good deal of time in his recent tests. While I would do some things differently, I don't see any benefit in picking on him. It appears his only motivation was to share his finding with us the best he could.

Having said that, I must admit I'm having trouble making any sense of the results. For all practical purposes we are seeing an antenna that has one of the lowest gains possible (unity gain half wave A99) beating one of the highest gains verticals. I sure can't replicate that.

BTW SW, I read about professional antenna designer discussing the merits of unity gain antennas all the time regarding higher frequency service. I can only assume that in many instances there can be advantages to an antenna with a bit broader lobe of maximum RF at all angles on or near the horizon and even a bit higher. I can't prove such ideas, but when I look at such patterns I often wonder what is being missed with a high gain antenna that has a deep null at some important angle necessary to reach a specific point. I'm just thinking out loud, but I do wonder.
 
i don't doubt eddies test, hes a standup guy, its far from what we see here even if i did tests in the same fashion, the a99 is at the bottom of the antenna pile,

a99 or 1/2wave gp27
imax
sirio827
i10k
sigma4
modified vector

we also see more difference between antennas than eddie does at any distance.
 
i don't doubt eddies test, hes a standup guy, its far from what we see here even if i did tests in the same fashion, the a99 is at the bottom of the antenna pile,

a99 or 1/2wave gp27
imax
sirio827
i10k
sigma4
modified vector

we also see more difference between antennas than eddie does at any distance.

Thanks Bob for your kind words.

My use of that anecdotal story was hopefully to show others that I was almost in disbelief at the revelation, for me months later after the actual testing, when I emailed you that my A99 charts showed the best gain of all tested during that period in 2006, I think.

Hopefully you remember that.
 
Final Signal Reports of my antennas all alone on the same mount.

Here are my final Signal Reports #33 & #34 on my Marconi 7x and my Wolf .64 tested alone with no other antenna mounted. I did the Wolf .64 report at different times using different radios to check the difference that might make. This is all I'm doing in this series.

View attachment Signal Reports 33 & 34.pdf

I will be taking both down in the next couple of days and re-installing my Sirio Gain Master on my new mount as high as I can get it, which I hope will be almost 67' to the tip. That is about 10' feet higher that I raised it in previous tests and comparisons. Earlier I could see noticeable improvement while raising the GM just 5' feet more, so with this 10' increase, I expect it to make the strongest signals to date, but that will be on the air testing only, no more reports in this series.

If I can get one of Terry Davis's, 55 model top hat mobile antennas for a review, then I'll test it out on top of my Marconi 7x after I remove the three horizontal GP radials and compare it to the previous test #33 above and use which ever ground plane configuration proves to perform the better. This will be in response to the thread on Top Hats.

I have videos on my YouTube channel if you would like to check this out. Plus the comparisons testing I did over two days on reports #35 & #36 below, where I raised my Marconi up another 10' feet to 52' feet to the tip and checked it out against my Wolf .64 @ 57' feet to the tip. I did receive some feedback comments that indicated the Wolf was showing a better signal from my station at the other end, by 1/2 to 1 Sunit. These verbal reports were from some local contacts that are listed on my Signal Report. I also has several DX contacts, with Robb and 007 that I think showed a mix with the best signal. But with that said...on my end the Marconi 7x, at 52', showed the best signals in those two comparison reports all the way on average and I still cannot explain why that is.

Again, I expect the GM will beat even the Marconi 7x if I can safely get it up to 67' to the tip.

View attachment Signal Reports 35-36.pdf
 
Very interesting results. I see you're still not trying to win any popularity contests posting results that defy everyone else's notion of what must be the results. I don't know why you are seeing what you are, but I am not surprised about it.
If I can get one of Terry Davis's, 55 model top hat mobile antennas for a review, then I'll test it out on top of my Marconi 7x after I remove the three horizontal GP radials and compare it to the previous test #33 above and use which ever ground plane configuration proves to perform the better. This will be in response to the thread on Top Hats.


Somewhere I have either bookmarked a link, or saved on my PC enough info on the dimensions of the Merlin. I had at the time considered seeing if I could homebrew one for testing.
 
Very interesting results. I see you're still not trying to win any popularity contests posting results that defy everyone else's notion of what must be the results. I don't know why you are seeing what you are, but I am not surprised about it.

Somewhere I have either bookmarked a link, or saved on my PC enough info on the dimensions of the Merlin. I had at the time considered seeing if I could homebrew one for testing.

Yep Homer, I keep on getting similar results and I post what I get. I'm trying very hard to control any natural bias I have, but I sure some will suggest I defying gravity next. Yesterday I mentioned that I got some feedback results that were the exact opposite however. Maybe Robb and 007 will pop in and confirm or deny what I think they saw with the two antennas.

Remember the video's are on my YouTube channel for anyone who wants to verify if I recorded the signals correctly.

YouTube - Marconi390's Channel

It would be interesting to check the results for a homemade Merlin. I have no idea how or how well it will perform, but with my experience with a similar results I can't get categorical about it not working as well as some of the stories claim.
 
It would be interesting to check the results for a homemade Merlin. I have no idea how or how well it will perform, but with my experience with a similar results I can't get categorical about it not working as well as some of the stories claim.

You already know that I have a point of view on antennas that mount cap hats directly over coils. I think it is poor design. That said, what's the point of an opinion without at least one effort to test the idea. I won't be doing it should I g ahead with the project because a vendor said I should, but because Mama always told us we had to try the food before we could say it was something we didn't like.

I've tried armadillo twice, raccoon twice, possum 5 times, chitterlings 5 times, and a variety of different song birds. The birds were better than any of the other animals. Daddy said if we shot it we had to eat it. I've taken a shot at the cap hat/coil design, so I guess it's time to cook it up and taste it. ;)
 
Very interesting results. I see you're still not trying to win any popularity contests posting results that defy everyone else's notion of what must be the results. I don't know why you are seeing what you are, but I am not surprised about it.
.

What defys logic is using bouncing SSB signals to try to see any difference in signals. Please for the love of god get someone on AM to throw a dead key for 10-20 second and switch antennas, pick several stations. Use the radio with the round analog meter from last test. That would probably be the best way for what you are using and would cause you no effort to do it and would give a better representaion of what is happening.
 
Marconi, I believe the best way to make the reading is either by whole number or a 1/2 split only. i.e., it is either a 7 or 7.5, the latter of which is anywhere between 7 and 8.

If you really wanted to try and make it more accurate, you might be able to judge a 1/4 split, but I think that is pushing it a bit.

and then you would put a tolerance on that, +/- one digit of the smallest reading (1/2 or 1/4, depending on how you want to go.)

Yes C2, if I was able to get all these guys to testing with me using FM mode like Oggy has shown us, then I could figure a way to record needle width readings like you suggest, but with the needle bouncing around in sideband mode sometimes would be hard to try and make this a more refined Signal Report. I tend to try and record the peaks.
 
What defies logic is using bouncing SSB signals to try to see any difference in signals. Please for the love of god get someone on AM to throw a dead key for 10-20 second and switch antennas, pick several stations. Use the radio with the round analog meter from last test. That would probably be the best way for what you are using and would cause you no effort to do it and would give a better representaion of what is happening.

MrS, this is not scientific. It is only a video of what every other "hard dick" in the world sees, like when "Chicken Bone" tells us the best antenna he tested was a when he was 13, talking on his daddy's "Signalgetter." This is not as misleading as you might expect unless you're just looking for winners and loosers. "Winner's and Looser's" concepts can often be riddled with human bias and nothing else.

I have ever confidence that you can finger' it all out, just like all the rest. All I've done here is give you guys that cannot test various antennas a chance to look over-my-shoulder and draw your own conclusions. Homer and a few other's do that quite nicely.

You never did send me any of your models...like you promised several times, thank you! Do I have to keep reminding you?
 
What defys logic is using bouncing SSB signals to try to see any difference in signals. Please for the love of god get someone on AM to throw a dead key for 10-20 second and switch antennas, pick several stations. Use the radio with the round analog meter from last test. That would probably be the best way for what you are using and would cause you no effort to do it and would give a better representaion of what is happening.

While I applaud Marconi's attitude and hard work in this test I agree about using SSB mode test, an AM signal with no modulation would be a much fairer mode for these types of test.
 
While I applaud Marconi's attitude and hard work in this test I agree about using SSB mode test, an AM signal with no modulation would be a much fairer mode for these types of test.

Hey Mac, I'll be sure and tell that to all the guys around my local area. But they've been working SSB for 30 years or more, and I don't think they'll switch just to make Ole' Grampa happy.

Thanks for the kind words though.
 
eddie,
i did just that, looked over your shoulder when you compared the sigma vs gainmaster, clearly the sigma in stock tune was ahead in the test with the analogue s-meter and ahead some of the time on the 570 meter but your buddy said the opposite and thats what you have as a result,
do you believe your own eyes or what somebody else tells you,
if i was seeing an increase on one antenna and the guy at the other end said the opposite, alarm bells would ring,
IF results are not reciprocal then imho either conditions are screwing up the tests or your buddies are confused,

take results from anybody using a beam with a pinch of salt,

as far as less rfi ect goes, the gm is isolated from the mast and feedline, yes its part of the design needed to insert a high series impedance into the lower dipole leg but it kills two birds with one stone, you have a secondary benefit of little coax/mast common mode current, since most people just stick their antenna on the mast with little or no thought about where cm currents may be flowing the gm has an ace up its sleeve,
imho the others should also be isolated/choked to ensure currents are flowing where they are supposed to, what are your thoughts on that ?


conditions here at the moment are very poor for doing antenna tests;)
 

dxChat
Help Users
  • No one is chatting at the moment.
  • @ kopcicle:
    If you know you know. Anyone have Sam's current #? He hasn't been on since Oct 1st. Someone let him know I'm looking.
  • dxBot:
    535A has left the room.
  • @ AmericanEagle575:
    Just wanted to say Good Morning to all my Fellow WDX members out there!!!!!