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Marconi's New 2011 testing on same AT system

eddie,
i did just that, looked over your shoulder when you compared the sigma vs gainmaster, clearly the sigma in stock tune was ahead in the test with the analogue s-meter and ahead some of the time on the 570 meter but your buddy said the opposite and thats what you have as a result,

Bob, I have not studied or captioned my results for the first series of comparisons, side-by-side, nor the most recent series where I tested a few of my antennas alone on the same mount. Frankly I haven't ever studied them to see if I can decipher anything special. I may have commented in a post here or there, but I don't know anything particular except what the averages show. I have noted that the averages might not be trustworthy without the same 8 guys testing for sure, to be fair I think the radios can make some differences as well. I also agree there are questions raised also when guys are switching antennas, radios, and their amps, to say nothing about conditions. I don't recall anything specific about a buddy convincing me to the point of my results. I know I have commented about some of my buddies comments, but that was said as a comment among many that were made during this process. Can you reference this comment so I can look back at something I might have said or written?

do you believe your own eyes or what somebody else tells you, if i was seeing an increase on one antenna and the guy at the other end said the opposite, alarm bells would ring, IF results are not reciprocal then imho either conditions are screwing up the tests or your buddies are confused,

Bob I try, but at times I do get tried eyes. I don't think you are suggesting a possible mistake here, it has to be something more specific or I misunderstand your words. Again, what did I say or write that suggested I equivocated on some results. This does not compute for me. Do you have a reference, or is this a general feeling you have with what I have presented. I just write my impressions down and later add them up and post them. Sometimes I video some of these record keeping experiences trying to produce a verifiable record, and I do find myself making mistakes. Help me out. Maybe if I rehashed all of these reports so far, I too would see what you see. I spend most of my time outside doing the work, so right now I don't take time trying to analyze the results. I said this before, I think you might remember the way it went with my amazement before when I came to you months later after testing a couple of years ago and talked about my surprise in discovering my reports showed that my A99 was showing the best all around results. The question or statements are fine, but can you clarify this for me a bit? I might agree, because when I hear such comments to the contrary I also think about antennas being reciprocal. Sometimes I even get a funny feeling I've made a mistake, misunderstood, or heard an outright lie.


take results from anybody using a beam with a pinch of salt,

You're probably right here.

as far as less rfi ect goes, the gm is isolated from the mast and feedline, yes its part of the design needed to insert a high series impedance into the lower dipole leg but it kills two birds with one stone, you have a secondary benefit of little coax/mast common mode current, since most people just stick their antenna on the mast with little or no thought about where cm currents may be flowing the gm has an ace up its sleeve, imho the others should also be isolated/choked to ensure currents are flowing where they are supposed to, what are your thoughts on that?

Well you might recall I tried the idea on a limited bases with my A99 back in 2009. I didn't have as notable results as Multimode did, but I thought I saw some improvement, but I did not insulate by raising the radiator above the insulator, I insulated side-by-side and at some point you brought up that fact as a likely reason I did not get as good of results.

I tend to believe, as you, that CMC can be a negative if excessive and left uncontrolled and it may be really hard to tell.

I think Sirio uses this characteristic in their design of the GM to their advantage, and my experience is that their design also curtails CMC's at the right point with a very effective choke. I also remember W8JI talking about CMC's to an young RF engineer about how he evaluated the occurrence of CMC's and the new engineer was said to be wrong in diagnosing the problem, so I don't think I'm qualified to say, but I do have my own ideas and I use a Field Strength Meter to suggest when an antenna is acting badly. That said however, I don't know if I'm right.


conditions here at the moment are very poor for doing antenna tests;)
 
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Marconi, I think that when Bob said he saw where what your buddy told you differed from what he thought you were seeing was when he was looking at one of your videos. My impression of his statement was what he noted in your video by "looking over your shoulder" was different than what you reported, and he wondered if a different reciprocal report from your friend's station influenced your reported result.
Perhaps he was suggesting that your look again at the meter readings on the video. That's what I think :confused:
 
heres the vid im talking about where your buddy is claiming the gm is significantly ahead of the sigma4 but thats not what we are seeing on the meter when you tell us sigma or gainmaster,
http://www.worldwidedx.com/cb-antennas/91530-marconi-testing-sigma4-vs-gain-master.html

under normal no skip conditions, if i see more signal on my meter the guys at the other end see more signal on their meters, i have never seen a situation under no skip conditions that sig is up on my meter but down on the station im working,
i try to blind test when possible so the guys listening don't know which antenna is which,

my locals seem to be more interested/enthusiastic about which antenna is best, back when i was doing lots of testing i had a few older guys calling me "mr rigcheck its all he does",
they were happy with anything and just wanted to yap, no interest in antennas at all:)
 
Breaker, Breaker Bob, can I get a internek rig check? You are correct about local signals being similar on both radios when no skip conditions are present.

Antennas moving in the wind usually cause these conditions that Marconi is seeing.
 
Thanks for the link Bob. You are right about one thing, I didn't do a very good job of blind testing, and thus I left the door wide open. That was my contact Russell that said that, and I generally don't trust much of anything he says. I was even surprised he didn't balk at giving me the signal report in the first place.

However, he did note that the S4 showed 2-3 and the GM showed 3-5, and that maybe generally in the ball park with the recap averages I saw in my recent side-by-side testing.

I think I've said this before, but I haven't really sat and studied these reports yet and have not added captions, so your point may be correct. If I did state somewhere that this report from Russell was the deciding factor, then that was not what I meant to relate. If I talked about this experience in a post at all, then I was just being anecdotal. One reason I don't encourage two way reports is because different radios can show different signals whether DX is working or not. I have no idea about his radio, and that is why I asked him if he had a meter and it was working. He is reputed to do tech work on radios, amps, and such and from what I've seen at his station, he usually is working a rig that has no cabinet, just the board and he has stuff like that everywhere.

I think Homer is right about the reciprocal issue that Bob raises, and I haven't thought that issue out well, but I do believe antennas show reciprocal tendencies and I'm not sure at all how radios and their meters deal with that. Bob, I would expect radios to do as you suggest however. Frankly I remember being a bit surprised as his words, so I thought maybe since I added unnecessary words, about how old the Sigma4 was, I might have confused the issue, and I wasn't about to continue the conversation in a hostile setting. I just knew that at any moment someone would start complaining so I got out of there fast. I never gave that conversation another thought. Maybe that is why I couldn't relate to your original words until you refreshed my memory. Remember too, I've been very busy with all this testing and haven't really done a good job of recall on the forum.

BTW, when looking back at that video I noticed the two antennas were showing me about the same signal from most operators, including Russell with maybe a slight advantage for the Sigma4 at that point. I saw it hanging close to Russell's S9 signal a bit more than the signal for the GM, so Bob you are right on that score. I also noticed that right at the end of this exchange some unknown signal popped up in my receiver and that could have been the opening up of some DX. I think most of the videos were done during am hours between 5:00 & 9:00 AM, and these guys usually stop talking if DX starts up, so I'm not sure what the conditions really were. Usually when I try and do videos for my Signal Reports, the talking you hear is when I'm talking to the camera and not the guys I reporting on. It's harder to test and talk to the guys on my radio.

:headbangMack is full of hot air, because my antennas are enclosed in the "Cone of Silence" in an effort to help eliminate that variable from ill-affecting my scientific research. :thumbdown:

Bob, sure has it right about when he was testing a lot. It's the same here, but these guys are all younger.
 
Here I'm comparing my Gain Master to my Marconi 7x, with both on top of 44' masts

Here is my Gain Master @ 64' and my Marconi 7x @ 52'. I have about 2.5' more I can raise the GM up to right at 67', but my guy ropes are a little short. I figured them too short in my planning.

Gain Master vs. Marconi 7x #1 (640x480).jpg

Gain Master vs. Marconi 7x #2 (640x480).jpg

I will be sending my Signal Reports along soon and my new videos for 03/04/11 are already posted on my YouTube channel.

View attachment Signal Reports #37 - #38.pdf

Now I'm off to change the ground plane setup on my Marconi 7x, with 7 x 102" whips slanted down. Which ever setup shows the best performance if any, I will then test a shortened radiator with a top hat for comparison with the Gain Master using the best GPK on the M7x.

I think then I'll stop testing and build me a beam for my mount out back, and see if I can get it up about 35' on the horizontal.
 
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