Popular CB Dealer gets cited for selling "exports"

[AudioShockwav]

or use devices, which fail to comply with
regulations promulgated pursuant to this section

Because the radio is legal for an Amateur to USE within the limits of his/her license.
As such, it is in compliance.
The whole deal is that you are not to use them as a Cb.
That is the intent of the rule, to stop them being sold as Cb`s.
You have to step back and look at the big picture.
They wrote the rules to try and stop the sales of Cb`s that do not meet the requirments, yet still allow ARS Ops access to radios that they can use, both for ARS and for the guys that NEED MARS/CAP Radios.
If they are not careful how they word it, Yaesu, Kenwood, SCG and Icom would not be selling radios in the US.
I do not always agree with how the FCC does things, But I do SEE were they are trying to go with this.
The real deal is that the flood gates burst open wide a very long time ago, They really blew the first go they had to nip it in the bud, and they will never catch up.
For every on-line retailer they nab, there are 5 more to take there place.
And a Smart guy will just order his radio from a retailer OUTSIDE of the US, were there are NO restrictions on the sale of these radios.......
They will never stop The manufacture of these radios, because this is not the only country that uses them, even if there is a large market for them here.

73
Jeff

 

[todt061458]

I do not see the word intent anywhere in the rule you all are talking about. All I see is a rule. No intent or other options alllowed. A rule is a rule.No big picture allowed in this rule. Please show me where it says a amateur can use this illegal to import radio. Sorry I just do not see it the rules state illegal to import so a radio ham can bypass this rule simply because he want's too? Rewrite the rule or live with it. Simple.
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-257451A1.pdf
http://www.fcc.gov/commissioners/martin/
Michael Powel is gone long live the new boss. yep in 2005
http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Miscellaneous/News_Releases/2001/nrmc0111.html

 

[Sonwatcher]

That's what I see. From what I understand the law within the Communications Act refers to ALL devices that require FCC certification not just export cb's.. Awhile back there was a big stink with people buying import high powered long distant capable phones and the FCC cracked down because they were not legal in the US for sale or use under the same law.

 

[Seminoles]

This will open a whole big can of worms but here it goes anyway that is what the courts are for to decide who’s interoperation of the rules is right so while the ones who want to argue what can and can’t be I’ll be watching the race and talking to people closer then x number of miles no further since long range communications is for Ham on my factory tuned Cobra 148. If I wanted hundreds of thousands of channels, thousands of watts of power, and any kind of emissions I would get my Ham ticket as long as I stayed on my channel didn’t shut down the Cell towers, Cable, Phone, Emergency Communications, Hospitals unlike some CB’s around here which have been shut down no one would care. Picture this someone setting on top of a mountain top parked in there car with there 10kw CB powers in on the red phone talks to China gets into an argument tells the guy I’ll come over there and pull you out of your chair and whip your *** next thing we have a nuclear war. So if you want power and channels get a Ham ticket remember when CB first started you didn’t need 600 watts to talk across town wouldn’t the ground noise go down with all of the power removed from all over.

 

[Sonwatcher]

I don't see it as arguing just sort of a round table discussion sharing different points of view. Hopefully being able to help form an opinion or conclusion based on different outlooks and in the end learn something from each other's input.

 

[yama junk owna]

The law says illegal to sell . No ifs no buts no maybes, if you are a ham and Mr. Ping ships you one for free then you can do with it whatever you want as long as you stay within your license privilages. I don't see that happening anytime soon, I have said it before and will repeat myself the FCC only does these kneejerk bust to save face and keep the crybaby hams happy, if they wanted to stop them they could. Like I said before also why would anyone want one of the pieces of junk to start with when you can buy a new ic 718 for less than what the rangers sell for and have a much better radio!!!! :twisted: :roll:

 

[C W Morse]

The law says illegal to sell . No ifs no buts no maybes, if you are a ham and Mr. Ping ships you one for free then you can do with it whatever you want as long as you stay within your license privilages. I don't see that happening anytime soon, I have said it before and will repeat myself the FCC only does these kneejerk bust to save face and keep the crybaby hams happy, if they wanted to stop them they could. Like I said before also why would anyone want one of the pieces of junk to start with when you can buy a new ic 718 for less than what the rangers sell for and have a much better radio!!!! :twisted: :roll:

They would do more if their budget allowed, but that's up to Congress. While it is certainly imperfect, as was was said, it is an attempt to stem the flow of "export" radios into the hands of CB operators. The only way they can do that is to deal DIRECTLY with the issue of their use on CB itself. After all, it's not the hams encroaching onto............say, the aviation band, or the rescue squad. But we all know that if the CB operators who got those radios had STAYED out of the adjacent bands, we wouldn't even discussing this, and it got started because the CB guys were following their lust for "extra" channels and "freebanding" which led them up into the ham bands. That got the attention of the hams who have, at least, a bit of clout up at FCC. So it led to chain of events including busts against dealers. FCC HAS to respond to complaints of interference to licensed services, so...................................
There will NEVER be "perfect" law, a perfect way to deal with
RF issues. So we have to take it the way it is. CB radios MUST be certified, 40 channel, 4 watt units with NO additions or modifications. Amateurs may use, purchase, or build whatever will meet the needs and regulations of Part 97. It has nothing to do with the restriction on the sale of "10 Meter" radios that have "bands of channels" (of which most hams wouldn't be caught with because there's better equipment at a better price). The issues are totally different animals and have nothing to do with each other. What is not explicitly spelled out is, they are trying to deal with the issue of illegal equipment on CB bands without causing hardship to OTHER services who, for the most part, have done nothing wrong. This happened back in '78 with the restriction on amplifiers capable of 24-30 MHZ. Guess who had to deal with THAT inconvenience. The hams who had done nothing wrong in that issue and it was because of the CB craze of the 70's. They simply don't WANT to create a blanket rule that would work hardship on other radio services. So the "export" radios are excluded from legal sale.


73

CWM

 

[chipotle]

The law against the export radios is no less or more flawed than any other U.S. law. The FCC is simply trying to keep the illegal activity contained within reasonable limits while
1) balancing the chilling affect the law has on ham activity; and
2) avoiding misappropriating law enforcement recources which are needed for other more pressing criminal activity.

The FCC sends enough citations, which are published, to make everyone think twice about breaking those laws. The citation sending is very inexpensive. To further enforce the citation would cost a fortune in court and collection costs with no guarantee of a win, and if the FCC wins, there is no guarantee of collecting the fine, and we all know there is no more room in prison for non-violent offenders.

In conclusion, it is the publication of the citations that deters other potential dealers (and possibly consumers), not the enforcement of an existing citation, (which would not be pubic, and therefore, have little deterrant affect on other potential dealers).

In my view, the FCC is doing the right thing, and they know that a further increase or "stepping up" in enforcement is NOTworth it, and is thus, an increase is not forthcoming. Nothing will change.

 

[C W Morse]

The FCC sends enough citations, which are published, to make everyone think twice about breaking those laws. The citation sending is very inexpensive. To further enforce the citation would cost a fortune in court and collection costs with no guarantee of a win, and if the FCC wins, there is no guarantee of collecting the fine, and we all know there is no more room in prison for non-violent offenders. (quote)

They seldom lose, tho! Pilot Travel Centers negotiated their $125,000 fine down to $90,000. Others have done the same once they demonstrated an inability to pay large fines. But each settled fine actually HELPS FCC by "padding" their precedents when cases DO end up in court. With the exception of Ranger (Peng- caused by a goof-up by bureacrats), they rarely lose cases because the regulations leave little room for ambiguity. By specifically naming EACH radio that they have determined to be illegal to sell, it pretty well plugs any leaks. Legally, there is NO comparison to be drawn between the use of such radios by hams since their rules permit the use of most ANYTHING that will meet spectral purity requirements for THEIR service----even building a transceiver for themselves.

Again, if folks had stayed within 11 Meters, we prolly wouldn't even be discussing this; it wouldn't be important enough to go after. But interference to other licensed services? They couldn't ignore that!


73

CWM

 

[yama junk owna]

Here we go again.
1-There are no more busts today than there have been any other time back in the 70's there were most likely a lot more
2- The reason the FCC lost to Ranger was because of the way the law is , if the FCC don't know what it says how can it be enforced?
3- If you proclaim an item ILLEGAL to sell or offer for sell by anyone you can't turn around and say well Billy over here can buy one cause he has a license, If it is illegal to sell or offer for sell how is Mr ham going to get one?
4- Let's go back to the undue hardship deal, the amateur world ain't faultless in all this, who built most of the amps and sold them to cbers to start with? who back in the 60's-70's was on 11 meters with Collins and Drake and Yaesu eq using over 100 watts and bragging where all their radios would talk ?
5- The reason the FCC gets the fines is because lets take the Pilot case. ok 90 grand is a lot of money to me but to Pilot it is less than what, maybe 2 -3 hours of sells. They could have spent 10 times that much fighting the case in court, and if the won they just got out of paying 90 grand by spending 900 not very good deal is it. Also if lets say Pilot won this case it would force the FCC to clean up the law and may make it a lot tougher, so if Pilot waits a few months with the way things are now they will go back to selling like nothing happened, everybody wins, the FCC gets to say we busted these guys, Pilot says we done our good dead we payed our fine, and the truck drivers will still get to buy their outlaw radios everybody is happy right?

 

[chipotle]

"But each settled fine actually HELPS FCC by "padding" their precedents when cases DO end up in court."

Settlement discussions, terms of settlement, or the fact that the parties "thought" about settlement are always always inadmissible in state and federal court, always. The mentioning of settlement discussions at trial is automatic grounds for a mistrial. The policy behind this ancient law is that if people thought their settlement discussions would end up infront of a jury the people would likely not have "open and frank" settlement discussions.

Precident can only be set by an order or verdict at the appellate or supreme court level. Lower court rulings and verdicts cannot have any precident for other cases. Only the supreme and appelate court's can make (interpret) case law.

The settlements, however, offer significant precident for future settlements only. Such as, the FCC saying to another Truck Stop who got busted, "Pilot settled for 90k, we are giving you a great deal at 75k."

The law, as it stands based on the Ranger case ruled that the law was unconsitutionally vague and that no one could know if they were breaking it. The FCC continually trys to clear it up, so another similar court case may result in a different ruling, perhaps, in favor of the FCC this time, who knows. By the look of the incredible amount of internet disuccsion on the 10 meter law, it makes one wonder if we all really understand what the law means. Even electtrical engineers I have spoken with do not fully understand what is going on.

 

[Sonwatcher]

By the look of the incredible amount of internet disuccsion on the 10 meter law, it makes one wonder if we all really understand what the law means. Even electrical engineers I have spoken with do not fully understand what is going on.

That is exactly where I was at. I noticed there are a lot of forums I have never heard of discussing this same matter with the same differing opinions. So at the beginning of the week I called the FCC and asked flat out if these radios, that are illegal to market in the US, are ok for licensed amateur operators to use on the amateur bands ? Today on my way home I called home and my wife said I had a message from a Diane from the FCC. She had told me she would get back to me after directing the question to someone in charge of Amateur Licensing. I got home just now and she has stated that an Amateur is allowed to use the Amateur portion of an export radio. So that settles the question for good with me.
If anyone would like to verify the answer you can call Diane at 877-480-3201 option #2. The case# for my question is #776635

 

[C W Morse]

That's what several of us were saying all along! Hams can use a TOASTER if they can get it to transmit on the ham bands! 8)


73

CWM

 

[chipotle]

Good, the FCC believes that the radios they listed are illegal for non-hams, but legal for hams. I hope the Supreme Court agrees with the FCC this time around.

 

[C W Morse]

The problem, Karo, is you are trying to associate Amateur Radio with CB. It is illegal for the dealer to SELL the radio that is listed on FCC's Office of Technology list. If a licensed Amateur bought the "export" radio, and an FCC agent walked in at the time, the dealer would be cited for {selling} the illegal radio; the licensed Amateur would walk away untouched because the services are separate and distinct from each other. The dealer would be ticketed for SELLING it.
The Amateur is not subject to punishment because he is NOT breaking ANY rule that applies to his service and he can use, or BUILD, any radio he chooses that meets the specifications for Part 97. This is the same thing as CB must use 4 watts of power while Amateurs may use up to 1500 watts if necessary to establish and maintain contact. The CBer, if caught, is going to pay a fine for that amplifier while the Amateur will walk away untouched (so long as he is operating within the rules of HIS license). The rules that apply to CB have nothing to DO with Amateur Radio and the restrictions on "export" radios are in place for ONE reason; to STOP their use on CB and prevent the filching onto 10 and 12 meters by unlicensed people.

The TS-450 (nice rig--I always wanted one!) is NOT on that list so you may buy it and let it sit on the shelf if you like. The moment you USE it on CB frequencies, it constitutes an illegal use. If you transmit on the Amateur bands without license, it an illegal use!

Trying to find loopholes, trying to make comparisons between what Amateurs are allowed to do and what CBers are permitted, or attempting to insert allegations of "unfairness" simply doesn't wash. CB radio is NOT a "hobby" service under US law (altho people use it that way), nor will it be given some sort of "equal" status in the interpretation of their respective rules! CB operators MUST use FCC certified, 40 channel, 4 watt radios according to Part 95, US Code (Title 47). They may NOT attach amplifiers, or make changes in the equipment that change the factory settings (meeting FCC regs.). And they may NOT use "export" radios that have been deemed by FCC to be uncertifiable. We can sit here and argue until h-- freezes over and it won't change a thing! :roll: The Feds are NOT going to allow (within their funding capabilities) illegal equipment to be used on CB radio! It's a useless argument. As Sonwatcher posted (and others have said all along) "export" radios are illegal to SELL. IF a licensed Amateur happens to buy one, it still doesn't matter (tho WHY he would want one when there is so much better equipment out there) is beyond me. It is just the way it is.


73

CWM