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Put up a Hustler 5BTV today
- Thread starter Captain Kilowatt
- Start date
The filtering was in reference to fourstring burn's concern about harmonics being radiated by the traps. Not saying that will or won't happen but I wouldn't be concerned if using a modern radio with band pass filtering....unless baofeng starts building HF rigs.
I agree with the automatic tuner being needed for a multiband vertical. I will never buy another ham store tuner. They are overpriced for the quality you get and It's too easy to build one. I prefer performance over convenience. Surplus vacuum relays and vacuum variables driven by cheap gear reduction motors are a wonderful thing.
I agree with the automatic tuner being needed for a multiband vertical. I will never buy another ham store tuner. They are overpriced for the quality you get and It's too easy to build one. I prefer performance over convenience. Surplus vacuum relays and vacuum variables driven by cheap gear reduction motors are a wonderful thing.
I went the remote tuner method MANY years ago with an inverted L and a relay switched coil with taps and a reversible motor driven capacitor. It was housed in a box at the base of the antenna feedpoint. It worked well but that was before I got a tribander and that worked even better for 10/15/20m. I still used it on 80/160m. Next year after the yagis go up I may erect another such antenna or perhaps just wind a trap for 80m and fine tune the end of it for 160m. The Explorer-14 will have a rotary dipole for 40m as part of the main driven element. It will be 42 feet long with cap hats and inductive loading from the traps on the higher bands and mounted at 63 feet so it should work pretty decent.
I did go the bare vertical route with 34' and a SG-230. Yes it limits power. On several bands I can 1/4 wave 75 ohm transform to keep the VSWR off the line but would need switching at the feed point for multi band.
I do have a Butternut HF6V I'm rebuilding so I may have a comparison report soon.
I wasn't surprised that you went after the ground system with a vengeance, it's the only way to go
I got out the pressure washer and cut the turf placing the radials behind. I have fed it with 500+ from a Heath 2060 with a bit of frost on the ground. I think the defrosted grass was a good indicator of the over all efficiency.
Wrong coast or I'd give it a try vertical to vertical may even try a sched anyway .
So... my vertical works great line of sight, not too bad ground wave out to about 35 miles then is deaf out to near 170 miles where it picks up to about 275 miles then deaf out to 975-1200 where it picks up again . Even with varying conditions that pattern is fairly consistent . The DX surprise contact was on 17m into Buenos Aires. He was stacked yagis at 65 feet and a kilobuck.
Domestic surprise was in Connecticut.
The SG-230 even shows a match at 6M as well as flat at 11m but I can't help but think its less than optimum on either .
my $0.02
I do have a Butternut HF6V I'm rebuilding so I may have a comparison report soon.
I wasn't surprised that you went after the ground system with a vengeance, it's the only way to go
I got out the pressure washer and cut the turf placing the radials behind. I have fed it with 500+ from a Heath 2060 with a bit of frost on the ground. I think the defrosted grass was a good indicator of the over all efficiency.Wrong coast or I'd give it a try vertical to vertical may even try a sched anyway .
So... my vertical works great line of sight, not too bad ground wave out to about 35 miles then is deaf out to near 170 miles where it picks up to about 275 miles then deaf out to 975-1200 where it picks up again . Even with varying conditions that pattern is fairly consistent . The DX surprise contact was on 17m into Buenos Aires. He was stacked yagis at 65 feet and a kilobuck.
Domestic surprise was in Connecticut.
The SG-230 even shows a match at 6M as well as flat at 11m but I can't help but think its less than optimum on either .
my $0.02
Since you answered my question with a question, I'll pick you a part a bit.
Our little debate on these antennas stems from another thread about the OP looking for a limited space antenna to go under his vertical, not so much this thread.
I don't honestly know. You asked this question on other threads too. Both DX engineering sells these along with MFJ. My guess it's a combination of practicality and stealth against what maximum efficiency is to be expected using a shortened multi-band vertical antenna.
The Hustler is only a 1/4 wave at 30 meters whereas the 43ft is close to a 1/4 wave on 60 meters. As with ANY VERTICAL ANTENNA, The longer the antenna the better! I have seen commercial AM broadcast stations use shortened verticals with Cap-hats and my guess would be for antenna height restrictions for the particular location. Other than that, many are tall verticals at 1/2 or more wavelengths.
The Hustler has to use a resonator coil to get 80 meters.
Both antennas require lots of radials for each band.
It's trapped antennas, so is that similar to saying the traps themselves??? I meant it originally as the Hustler being a trapped antenna, these types of antenna " may" radiate harmonics.
I'll copy paste from the VE2AAY Canadian Amateur radio exam so maybe you can argue that their test is wrong if your implying that trapped antennas aren't known to radiate harmonics !
B-6-12-7
What is a disadvantage of using an antenna equipped with traps?
That's the best argument not to use one because the cost of a legal limit remote tuner is around $800
To sum it up, both antennas will work. One Is really short for a vertical and uses traps that are lossy but can have a low SWR and good bandwidth but that doesn't mean efficiency is good because on some bands it could be like a leaking dummy load. Is this much different for me using a 4 ft mobile screwdriver antenna and logging over a 100 DX countries?
The other is a much taller vertical and uses no traps or coils but relies on a closely mounted remote tuner and UNUN for the lower bands. This is similar to the mobile Icom AH2 tuner/whip combo.The losses are in the tuner, not so much the vertical radiator since it's not being loaded up with coils and traps.
The Hustler will be a good enough temporary antenna for you until you get to put up your Yagis. Any antenna is better than no antenna! The 43 ft would still be good but for you the costs wouldn't be justified for a temporary antenna.
Our little debate on these antennas stems from another thread about the OP looking for a limited space antenna to go under his vertical, not so much this thread.
I don't honestly know. You asked this question on other threads too. Both DX engineering sells these along with MFJ. My guess it's a combination of practicality and stealth against what maximum efficiency is to be expected using a shortened multi-band vertical antenna.
The Hustler is only a 1/4 wave at 30 meters whereas the 43ft is close to a 1/4 wave on 60 meters. As with ANY VERTICAL ANTENNA, The longer the antenna the better! I have seen commercial AM broadcast stations use shortened verticals with Cap-hats and my guess would be for antenna height restrictions for the particular location. Other than that, many are tall verticals at 1/2 or more wavelengths.
True, except matching it. The remote tuners have plenty of range and many people I have heard from using these antennas have had no problem matching up with a tuner except bands below 40 meters. This is where MFJ and DX engineering sell UNUN transformers to be put near the tuner to be able to match 80 and even 160 meters. Of course your efficiency is way down, but it will let you work the bands.
The Hustler has to use a resonator coil to get 80 meters.
Both antennas require lots of radials for each band.
It's trapped antennas, so is that similar to saying the traps themselves??? I meant it originally as the Hustler being a trapped antenna, these types of antenna " may" radiate harmonics.
I'll copy paste from the VE2AAY Canadian Amateur radio exam so maybe you can argue that their test is wrong if your implying that trapped antennas aren't known to radiate harmonics !
B-6-12-7
What is a disadvantage of using an antenna equipped with traps?
- A.
It is too sharply directional at lower frequencies - B.
It must be neutralized - C.
It can only be used for one band - D.
It may radiate harmonics more readily
That's the best argument not to use one because the cost of a legal limit remote tuner is around $800
To sum it up, both antennas will work. One Is really short for a vertical and uses traps that are lossy but can have a low SWR and good bandwidth but that doesn't mean efficiency is good because on some bands it could be like a leaking dummy load. Is this much different for me using a 4 ft mobile screwdriver antenna and logging over a 100 DX countries?
The other is a much taller vertical and uses no traps or coils but relies on a closely mounted remote tuner and UNUN for the lower bands. This is similar to the mobile Icom AH2 tuner/whip combo.The losses are in the tuner, not so much the vertical radiator since it's not being loaded up with coils and traps.
The Hustler will be a good enough temporary antenna for you until you get to put up your Yagis. Any antenna is better than no antenna! The 43 ft would still be good but for you the costs wouldn't be justified for a temporary antenna.
Take off angles. Once you start getting above 1/2 wavelength long a lobe at a high take off angle starts to dominate. For bands like 10,12 and 15m those lobes going off at say 45 degrees or more will have far more gain than the ones at DX angles. For the 10m band there's not just one lobe at an unwanted angle but a few and accompanied with some quite deep nulls.
Here is a 43ft vertical antenna with four 43ft radials on 28.500MHz. See how most of your signal is heading almost vertically up and that at the best DX angles you've a -18dB null. You're only going to really be working locals well with that one.
Traps aren't necessarily lossy and a well designed one will be almost negligible with the losses.
As for too short for the low bands, not necessarily. You will recall on another board I posted an antenna has three characteristics and you can have any two of three as a positive with the third as a negative so the characteristics are:
Size, Efficiency and Bandwidth.
Because we want a small efficient antenna then we have to compromise on bandwidth which the Hustler 5BTV does on 80m as you only get around 100kHz below 2:1. Had it had a wide bandwidth then it would have had low efficiency remaining at the same size.
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Preaching to the choir on that one. I worked in commercial broadcasting for 22 years and actually installed a few AM towers as well as performed government regulated proof of performance tests on the phased directional arrays we had. Cap hats on AM towers up here are VERY rare to find and most AM radiators tend to be in the vicinity of 1/4 wavelength.......some a little longer and some a little shorter but RARELY are they ever 1/2 wavelength especially on the low end of the band.
It depends on the type of tuner you use. I have a Yaesu auto tuner that is good but stumbles on some impedances. It's just another unnecessary expense for a temporary antenna installation.
It's trapped antennas, so is that similar to saying the traps themselves??? I meant it originally as the Hustler being a trapped antenna, these types of antenna " may" radiate harmonics.
I'll copy paste from the VE2AAY Canadian Amateur radio exam so maybe you can argue that their test is wrong if your implying that trapped antennas aren't known to radiate harmonics !
B-6-12-7
What is a disadvantage of using an antenna equipped with traps?
- A.
It is too sharply directional at lower frequencies- B.
It must be neutralized- C.
It can only be used for one band- D.
It may radiate harmonics more readily
From post #27 in this thread:"As for traps radiating harmonics I never heard of that. the traps themselves do not radiate harmonics. A trapped vertical is no different than any other multiband antenna including a fan dipole and of course will radiate any harmonics from the transmitter but so will a 43 foot antenna since there is nothing to stop them from reaching the antenna."
From post #30 in this thread:"Not sure what you meant about filtering at the antenna. There is no filtering but a multiband antenna will radiate harmonics better, that is certain, but as you said with modern transmitters the harmonic output is low anyway."
The trap losses are not nearly as bad as some amateurs like to think. There is a lot of info out there that will attest to this. Yes they have losses but find a report from a REPUTABLE source and you will see that the difference is not detectable on air. If the traps ate up half the power (which they are far from doing) it would still only be half an S-unit. That's like CBers arguing about using LDF4 cable over RG8 on 11m.
Anyway this whole thread was about my installation and not about what COULD have been done if it was someone else. Are there better options? Yes a Steppir vertical would be GREAT but $$$$. Am I satisfied with this especially since it is temporary and seems to work quite well? YES and that is all that matters.
Here is a google map pic of one 50 miles north of me. This is a 5000 watt daytime AM broadcast station but cuts back to 200 watts at night. This antenna has a caphat and that's what got my attention when I saw it so I looked it up to get more info. If this one exists, there are sure to be others. I never said they are rare or common place, they just exist in some areas.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.700...4!1sNqE_gVYc9hM12H3_KWlLYA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Here is the specs of our 50Kw station. Unless my math is wrong, at 770 KHz at 196 meters, that is a 1/2 wavelength LONG.
Elevation Info Site Elevation: 1524 meters
Height of Structure: 196 meters
Overall Height Above Ground: 196.6 meters
Overall Height Above Mean Sea Level: 1720.6 meters
http://fccinfo.com/CMDProASRLookup.php?tabSearchType=ASR+Search&sASR=1005235
Never denied that. But is your Yaesu a remote tuner? The 43 ft requires one not a shack tuner.
Any antenna mounted matching device is lossy, whether how much depends on the design. The 43ft has it's the majority of it's losses in the tuner.
You never addressed the Fact the when it comes to verticals, THE LONGER THE ANTENNA THE BETTER!
Exactly. I already mentioned that this debate is really carried over from another thread which to me seems you got offended because I said the OP should go with a shortened rotatable dipole AT HIS INSTALLATION and stay away from both Butternut and Hustler contraptions, then 43 ft verticals got thrown into the mix because I have read your bias-ness against them on different threads before.
Maybe you can move these posts over to that thread where it is more inline with this subject.
Well CK, you know how it is with certain internet types, whatever you do, they have done it faster, better, cheaper,.... ect.
The number 43 comes from calculated lengths for random wire and center fed doublet antenna element lengths.
Essentially, when running a tuner to random length antennas generally one or more bands were presenting impedances that were out of range of the tuners ability to tune. Because of this, people started calculating the lengths that were not a multiple of any of the HF ham bands half wavelength, and with this information looked for the lengths that were the farthest away from these high impedance multiples. This was done to make it easier to tune all bands on said antennas. 43 feet is one of the lengths that is not a half wavelength multiple of the higher HF ham frequencies.
The DB
EXACTLY. I knew that it was a length that presented minimal problems with impedance matching over a wide range but that is the only reason for it's length. Some people here present it as a magical length that seems to work wonders when in fact it may work well on 80 and likely 40m but as the wavelength gets shorter the radiation angle goes UP and that is it's drawback for long haul DX. I was asking the question to see what responses I would get but nobody could answer that.
I give you an A+ for being able to use Google to find a case to support your case. I would be disappointed in you if you could not find any. Of the nearly 5000 AM radio stations in the USA there will indeed be some with cap hats and some 180 degree towers half wavelength) but like I said they are MUCH more rare than normal unloaded radiators. FWIW when I first got into broadcasting our CFAB 1450 had a 96 foot radiator with an eight foot cap hat at the top. Just because we USED to use it does not mean they are common place. the new CFAB site has a single 90 degree tower. BTW we often talk in number of degrees a tower or transmission line or phasing distances are instead of feet or fractional wavelengths. A 3/8 wave is 135 degrees etc. I typed that and was not going back to edit it although now it probably would have been simpler.
Yes remote tuner.
And depending on that tuner those losses may equal the losses in traps in the 5BTV especially if the tuner is not rated for legal limit and the coils are small.
YES I DID but you don't understand or are not willing to admit it. Go back and look at post #27 again. "The big difference between a 43 foot antenna and the 5BTV is that the 5BTV functions as a 1/4 wave whereas the 43 footer functions as a whatever wavelength with the attendant various and often useless for DX vertical angle elevations.
And now look at MoGVZ's post number 36. This was addressed in both of those posts. once again......A LONGER ANTENNA IS NOT NECESSARILY BETTER IN SOME CASES WHERE THE ANTENNA IS A SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF A WAVELENGTH. So there you have it. NO I WILL NOT SAY ANY LONGER ANTENNA IS BETTER. I once had a 108 whip that happened to be exactly seven 1/4 wavelengths long on a commercial VHF business band radio I had in my car. Should work great right? Lots of gain and height right? It sucked compared to the simple 5/8 wave antenna I had on the same vehicle. The radiation angle was all over the place with most of it going straight up ate very high angles. This same principle is shown on HF longwires where on low freqs. the radiation tends to be broadside to the wire but as the freq is increased the lobes align with the wire itself. Now stand that longwire straight up and you can see the radiation is directed up at high angles. Unless you can make that 43 foot antenna shrink then it may very well not be as effective on the higher bands depending on the angle of arrival of the DX.
Was not offended at all and was just offering an alternative to what he suggested. You were actually the one who seemed pissed. FWIW you DO realize that you were condoning and actually recommending the use of an antenna that is only half the size of the 5BTV that you seem to be against yet you also state that the longer the antenna the better. It's not just vertical antennas you know. Longer horizontal antennas are better than short ones and a 14 foot horizontal all band antenna is going to be quite inefficient on the lower bands........even moreso than my 5BTV.
No...... I'm good.
Now if you will allow me to continue with MY thread about installing MY antenna I would like to say that I finally installed my radial staples yesterday. All 157 of them. It could use more but I ran out. I need to cut some more up tonight while sitting in front of the TV I guess. I could buy them but why buy something I can make from scrap? I should make up some more radials too but that would mean even MORE staples. When will the madness stop!
Wrong!
By itself it won't work well on 80 but it will work on 40.
Again, for 80 meters and below it requires an UNUN near the tuner to bring the impedances to a value that a remote tuner can handle.
The DB explained it well and seems appropriate why these are 43ft, I suspect you really didn't know why.
I never used these antennas but I considered one when I was looking for a single antenna for multiband operation. I did read up and learn about them but determined it wouldn't work at my location because I didn't have room for all the radials.
I'm not knocking what you put up at your location, but I think your taking it personally that I am.
I simply asked a direct question earlier because I often heard you speak out against the 43 ft antennas.
Those AM antenna examples are near me, that's how I knew them. One is 50 miles the other is only 8 miles from me.
I just used google to get a pic and info to show you since I don't have time to get a live pic for you.
If there are 2 examples in my area, I'm sure there are more elsewhere.
Carry on with your thread…
I just used google to get a pic and info to show you since I don't have time to get a live pic for you.
If there are 2 examples in my area, I'm sure there are more elsewhere.
Carry on with your thread…