vertical take off angles vs hor 1/4 wave and ground question

[Robb]

This thread isn't about me; it's about the question asked and our opinions.
If you want to get into this as a point; howabout starting another thread and I'd like to discuss it.

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

This thread isn't about me; it's about the question asked and our opinions.
If you want to get into this as a point; howabout starting another thread and I'd like to discuss it.

Yes Robb but opinions based on uninformed personal beliefs and opinions based on years of experience and knowledge are two completely different things. BJ's 40m antenna at 30 feet is equivalent to an 11m antenna at 7 or 8 feet above the ground in terms of wavelengths. Antenna performance and TOA would be very similar. I can't fathom how many people swear by this 36 feet thing or my favourite as they call it "into the first wavelength". Saying that "You may get some at 20 feet" is a bit misleading IMO. You will get plenty of DX at 20 feet. I have gotten plenty of DX with a ground mounted antenna six INCHES above the ground. I am not in any way disputing the fact that a higher antenna is a better performer than a lower one but for a temporary antenna at a camp or field day operation throw up whatever you can and worry more about how long your battery will last than what the TOA or antenna height is. I operate "campground mobile" every year and just throw a wire up into a nearby tree or over the tent even and have a ball on 20m and up. When 10/11m is open you WILL work DX regardless of what you have for an antenna.When camping or going on a fishing trip the least of my worries is my antenna because I have seen what will work over the last 35 years and anything near a 1/4 vertical or 1/2 wave dipole high enough not to walk into will work DX on 11m. Not everything you hear but it will work a lot of it. I have worked a few operators from the UK, two near Blackpool, that operate bicycle mobile near the beach with an incredible signal and less than 100 watts output.

 

[2RT307]

Turn your head sideways and watch (at 1:43) this QSO with Eli out in Sacramento from my QTH in Fort Worth:


On this antenna:

73,
RT307

 

[Robb]

Yes Robb but opinions based on uninformed personal beliefs and opinions based on years of experience and knowledge are two completely different things.

You think this is about personal beliefs? lol! No; I just read a bunch. Sorry. Not knocking anybody here. If you made a contact 15k miles away with a hamstick; then I will venture a guess that the other guy had an antenna that was set up to make the trip better than you were. That, and a wet string woulfd have worked if conditions were that favorable too.

Just an uninformed, lame-o don't-know-what-he-is-ever-talking-about, stupid-xss guess.

Get over it!
LOL!
Maximum Usable Angle

 

[wavrider]

If propagation is there a wet noodle will work as an antenna. SERIOUS.

I have worked into S America using an Cushcraft R8 mounted 6' off the ground. No big deal but I worked that station on ten meters.

If anyone is familiar with the R8 multiband vertical then it is a known fact that the higher HF bands are sort of a sorry excuse for an antenna, but it does work.

TOA means basically nothing when it comes to receiving a signal.
E layer and F layer makes all the difference at what angle you receive the signal at. Let's not forget back scatter.

Put up a vertical at the beach , ground mount it or put it on a pole, hope the propagation is good and have fun.

If the propagation is bad then catch some fish and drink a few cold ones.

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

You think this is about personal beliefs? lol! No; I just read a bunch. Sorry. Not knocking anybody here. If you made a contact 15k miles away with a hamstick; then I will venture a guess that the other guy had an antenna that was set up to make the trip better than you were. That, and a wet string woulfd have worked if conditions were that favorable too.

Just an uninformed, lame-o don't-know-what-he-is-ever-talking-about, stupid-xss guess.

Get over it!
LOL!
Maximum Usable Angle

Get over it yourself Robb. I have seen a lot of your posts with inaccurate info and got tired of correcting it a long time ago. I have been doing this stuff for going on 35 years both as a hobby and as a 22 year long profession. You can stick to reading your books but I will stick to real life practical experiences. It's just like driving a car, you can read about it all you want but that still does not mean you can drive.When you have propagation path analysis on file under your name with your FCC as I do with Industry Canada then I will take your comments regarding the 36 foot rule and other such generalities a bit more seriously but until then I will treat them as you yourself stated above "Just an uninformed, lame-o don't-know-what-he-is-ever-talking-about, stupid-xss guess."

As for the 3B9C DXpedition contact, they were running a Cushcraft A3S three element tribander on a 30 foot push-up mast.All the info about the operation is available on the web including what antennas on what bands. Oh, and it was horizontal polarity too while I was vertical of course. There is another of those antenna myths busted. enough of this crap. I'm going to bed.

 

[AudioShockwav]

This is not 11 meters, but look at the set-up he is using, and it works.
Clamped to a park bench, no pole...maybe 3 feet off the ground.
It works, and he is making contacts.
I have to Agree with the rest of the guys here that TOA/Feedpoint Height is not the Holy Grail of working DX.
Of course if you can get the Antenna up, it will work better, but just because you need to mount it lower, it will still work.


Yaesu FT897 / FT897D portable with home brew table top vertical - YouTube

Here are other Example`s Of Antennas that are mounted about as low as you can get.....and they work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQoFB3Xmgwo&feature=fvwp&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2ryK3-KS-0&list=UUVhDELg4Pf7hIMLqACta5Bg&index=9&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbjH3ZrX7fw&feature=related


73
Jeff

 

[gamegetter]

If propagation is there a wet noodle will work as an antenna. SERIOUS.

I have worked into S America using an Cushcraft R8 mounted 6' off the ground. No big deal but I worked that station on ten meters.

If anyone is familiar with the R8 multiband vertical then it is a known fact that the higher HF bands are sort of a sorry excuse for an antenna, but it does work.

TOA means basically nothing when it comes to receiving a signal.
E layer and F layer makes all the difference at what angle you receive the signal at. Let's not forget back scatter.

Put up a vertical at the beach , ground mount it or put it on a pole, hope the propagation is good and have fun.

If the propagation is bad then catch some fish and drink a few cold ones.

Suddenly my cooler idea is catching on! If nothing else you could rig it up to "remote control" and have it open the cooler every time you need a cold one!

just having some fun with it! You really are at the mercy of conditions for dx with such a low mounted vertical antenna to work sporadic E.

 

[gamegetter]

second thoughts! nevery mind deez.

 

[DXman]

When I seen the picture of what AudioShockWav just posted, it reminded me of the several times that I made contact to a gentleman in Portola, CA.
He used just a Wilson 1000 sitting on the floor of his radio room, he had a piece of aluminum foil under the antenna and with his 30 watt radio we made several contacts.

I thought it worked very good for what he had!

 

[gamegetter]

LMAO

 

[AudioShockwav]

Good Post Larry, and I remember talking to you one time and another station came in and he was talking on a Mag mount stuck on the AC unit outside his window.
Propagation is a real equalizer.
If not, most of the DX Mobile Op`s that all of us do every day would be useless.

73
Jeff

 

[wavrider]

Several years ago I was aligning a HR2510 on the bench.

When I got done I connected it to the four element yagi which was pointed NE from my QTH in FL.

I scanned through 10 meters and heard a few stations with NY accents.

I broke into the QSO and worked two of the ops. Then they asked me to work their friend.

I heard the station, no signal at all on the meter but I had audio, great audio.

I gave him a 5-1 RS report.

He was on the third floor of an apartment building in the Bronx, with a mag mount antenna stuck to the side of his refrigerator, using 20 watts.

That cooler idea may not be such a bad idea after all.

 

[ghutch]

Thanks for all your inputs.....Great thread and Info. I really have been Blessed with everyones ideas and thoughts!!
I have an antenna bag packed....several aluminum poles, a roll of wire and some ropes for supports and tie downs. bolts screws and etc..
Plan to work up a 1/4 wave vertical and if time allows a dipole to see if one works better than the other....never know what conditions will bring. And I may pull off the wilson 1000 mag mount and haul it just for grins? it has worked well mounted to my Tacoma back before the first of the year. I worked over 30 counties but the radio started slidding around on freq... so it is in the shop. Hopefully I'll get it back before I die? but thats another story.
This trip is going to be a blast if I make a few DX contacts during the non fishing time it will just add to the FUN. We leave on the 6th with 2 or possibly 3 boats ..... I sure the folks seeing us launch will think the "Homeless Hoard is heading to Mexico!" It's hard to believe the amount of water, ice, fuel, food, and gear it takes to spend a week on the beach!! Now to find a metal cooler to mount the mag mount down on:blushing: I like the cooler idea better and better!!!!!!!
It has been very hot the last couple days and my wife has had me on yard\digging duty? {Cry_river} I've dug enough holes over the last few days, hell if they were end to end the chinese army could crawl into south Texas!!
Again thanks for all the input and ideas......this is the best forum

 

[gamegetter]

what freq's will you be trying?

Listen for 724 on 38lsb. I haven't been on am much, but let me know if you work am and i'll monitor/shout out.

maybe we'll even get old grandpa down there in sunny south texas if conditions allow.

What are your dx numbers/handle?