:drool::drool:
what do you go by in skip im sure i have heard you unless your west of the rockies.
Take care
-
You can now help support WorldwideDX when you shop on Amazon at no additional cost to you! Simply follow this Shop on Amazon link first and a portion of any purchase is sent to WorldwideDX to help with site costs.
-
Retevis is giving away Radios for the New Year and Every Member is Eligible. Click Here to see the details!
What are the best and worst vehicles to run power in?
- Thread starter loosecannon
- Start date
what do you go by in skip im sure i have heard you unless your west of the rockies.
Take care
the insightful advice is free.
(eliminate any and all instances where MORE THAN ONE GROUND CONNECTION PATH exists between any two pieces of equipment. the vehicles in question ARE NOT the problem.) the propensity of many here to grounding everything in sight is the cause of the problem. the solution is to use a central grounding point or "sink" and isolating all equipment with more than a single ground path connection between any two pieces of equipment using the engine block as the central grounding point connection.
duplicate ground paths form the equivalent of a loop antenna which gathers interfering currents and cumulative path resistance transforms these currents into voltage fluctuations. because of these loop induced voltage fluctuations the intended ground reference in the system is no longer at stable voltage potential so signals ride on the noise. the noise becomes part of the program signal and upsets the voltages used to control the ECM and hence the rough idle and stalling of the engine.
isolating these duplicate ground return paths then becomes mandatory in any effort to provide a solution for the problem that is the topic of the current thread. it's extremely doubtful that you'll be hearing anything about this from some "mechanic" working in a vehicle dealership anywhere as it's simply not their area of expertise. to effectively deal with the problem the loop coupling created by multiple ground return paths between the several pieces of equipment must be eliminated allowing only the rf component to remain. right off hand i can think of two basic electronic components capable of this function, those being capacitors (dc blocking) and transformers (isolation) which are able to break up the paths responsible for the induced currents and the voltage fluctuations created by them.
the understanding of these basic principles and their practical application is all that is required for the flawless execution of high power installations in vehicles equipped with CPU/ECM regulated fuel, ignition, sensor, timing and other control functions.
the link was provided for those here who are subscribed to the Members Portal.
(eliminate any and all instances where MORE THAN ONE GROUND CONNECTION PATH exists between any two pieces of equipment. the vehicles in question ARE NOT the problem.) the propensity of many here to grounding everything in sight is the cause of the problem. the solution is to use a central grounding point or "sink" and isolating all equipment with more than a single ground path connection between any two pieces of equipment using the engine block as the central grounding point connection.
duplicate ground paths form the equivalent of a loop antenna which gathers interfering currents and cumulative path resistance transforms these currents into voltage fluctuations. because of these loop induced voltage fluctuations the intended ground reference in the system is no longer at stable voltage potential so signals ride on the noise. the noise becomes part of the program signal and upsets the voltages used to control the ECM and hence the rough idle and stalling of the engine.
isolating these duplicate ground return paths then becomes mandatory in any effort to provide a solution for the problem that is the topic of the current thread. it's extremely doubtful that you'll be hearing anything about this from some "mechanic" working in a vehicle dealership anywhere as it's simply not their area of expertise. to effectively deal with the problem the loop coupling created by multiple ground return paths between the several pieces of equipment must be eliminated allowing only the rf component to remain. right off hand i can think of two basic electronic components capable of this function, those being capacitors (dc blocking) and transformers (isolation) which are able to break up the paths responsible for the induced currents and the voltage fluctuations created by them.
the understanding of these basic principles and their practical application is all that is required for the flawless execution of high power installations in vehicles equipped with CPU/ECM regulated fuel, ignition, sensor, timing and other control functions.
the link was provided for those here who are subscribed to the Members Portal.
Last edited:
And how might one subscribe to the members portal?
I have seen a lot of interesting advice on the exchange but when I wan to read more the password thing blocks me.
Also I have my body grounded to the frame in 2 places and have no problems. I do not how ever have my equipment double grounded.
I have seen a lot of interesting advice on the exchange but when I wan to read more the password thing blocks me.
Also I have my body grounded to the frame in 2 places and have no problems. I do not how ever have my equipment double grounded.
freecell,
since you seem to have some insight here, would you mind applying the principles you layed out to some specific examples of what to do in my situation?
here is my setup, maybe you can tell me where the "loop antenna" is being formed:
radio is not mounted to any metal.
radio power positive is to positive terminal of battery.
negative is to negative terminal of battery.
coax from radio goes to input of amp.
amp is not mounted to any metal.
amp power is connected to positive and negative terminals of the battery.
coax from amp goes to input of low pass filter which is screwed to body of vehicle.
coax from low pass filter goes to antenna (wilson 1000) which is mounted on the center of the roof, hard mounted to the body of the vehicle.
now, maybe the low pass filter is the problem?
i put it in line because without it, SWR was 3 to 1.
SWR was the same when tried with different amp.
low pass inline, SWR went to 1.5 to 1.
SWR into amp has always been about 1.5 to 1.
one question that comes to mind is, even if i took the low pass filter out of line, wouldnt the amp still have two connections to ground?
one from the negative terminal of the battery, and one from the shield of the coax going to the antenna?
dont see any way around this if antenna is hard mounted.
thanks for any help you can offer.
PS- i too would like to join the portal. how can i?
LC
since you seem to have some insight here, would you mind applying the principles you layed out to some specific examples of what to do in my situation?
here is my setup, maybe you can tell me where the "loop antenna" is being formed:
radio is not mounted to any metal.
radio power positive is to positive terminal of battery.
negative is to negative terminal of battery.
coax from radio goes to input of amp.
amp is not mounted to any metal.
amp power is connected to positive and negative terminals of the battery.
coax from amp goes to input of low pass filter which is screwed to body of vehicle.
coax from low pass filter goes to antenna (wilson 1000) which is mounted on the center of the roof, hard mounted to the body of the vehicle.
now, maybe the low pass filter is the problem?
i put it in line because without it, SWR was 3 to 1.
SWR was the same when tried with different amp.
low pass inline, SWR went to 1.5 to 1.
SWR into amp has always been about 1.5 to 1.
one question that comes to mind is, even if i took the low pass filter out of line, wouldnt the amp still have two connections to ground?
one from the negative terminal of the battery, and one from the shield of the coax going to the antenna?
dont see any way around this if antenna is hard mounted.
thanks for any help you can offer.
PS- i too would like to join the portal. how can i?
LC
B
BOOTY MONSTER
Guest
i think its kinda related to what i learned back in my car stereo days about using multiple grounding points and the noise they can cause . a single common grounding point (star ground) was the prefered method . many guys that kept grounding here and there and everywhere created a lot of problems (ground loop) before they finally got a good/real ground but all the crap grounds left in place added noise . the moral of the story back then was if you had one good solid ground point that you didnt need the others . ground is ground , either you have it or you dont .
heres some info on ground loops thats focused on rf/radio gear and not car stereo stuff .
http://www.k0bg.com/loops.html
http://www.eham.net/articles/16830
heres some info on ground loops thats focused on rf/radio gear and not car stereo stuff .
http://www.k0bg.com/loops.html
http://www.eham.net/articles/16830
B
BOOTY MONSTER
Guest
thanks chain , basically i said the same thing freecell did.....
"eliminate any and all instances where MORE THAN ONE GROUND CONNECTION PATH exists"
LC , when you measured the swr with the filter in line was it before the filters place in line or after ? there should never be anything but coax between a meter and antenna when measuring swr . the input and output impedance of amps will affect swr also as will any component inline......even a swr meter/antennatuner . even coax can be incorrectly assembled or damaged and not show a short but have an incorrect impedance . coax impedance is affected by the distance of the center conductor and the outer shield and a damaged or cheap/incorrerectly manufactured section will never be right and can look perfectly new on the outside . i think sometimes that contribute to people saying a certian length of coax is necessary.......because the inital/other peices of coax tested to not show a short but the impedance in the coax itself it off/wrong .
also sometimes vehicles bodys arnt attached or built in a way that promotes a ground to the electrical system . sometimes even the roof doesnt have a ground to the rest of the vehicle and of course sometimes the roof isnt even metal so it cant make a ground .
"eliminate any and all instances where MORE THAN ONE GROUND CONNECTION PATH exists"
LC , when you measured the swr with the filter in line was it before the filters place in line or after ? there should never be anything but coax between a meter and antenna when measuring swr . the input and output impedance of amps will affect swr also as will any component inline......even a swr meter/antennatuner . even coax can be incorrectly assembled or damaged and not show a short but have an incorrect impedance . coax impedance is affected by the distance of the center conductor and the outer shield and a damaged or cheap/incorrerectly manufactured section will never be right and can look perfectly new on the outside . i think sometimes that contribute to people saying a certian length of coax is necessary.......because the inital/other peices of coax tested to not show a short but the impedance in the coax itself it off/wrong .
also sometimes vehicles bodys arnt attached or built in a way that promotes a ground to the electrical system . sometimes even the roof doesnt have a ground to the rest of the vehicle and of course sometimes the roof isnt even metal so it cant make a ground .
"Also I have my body grounded to the frame in 2 places and have no problems." I do not how ever have my equipment double grounded."
we're not discussing body to frame bonding here.
"I do not how ever have my equipment double grounded."
if you have a transceiver and an amplifier connected to central point ground and a piece of feedline connected between them you have multiple ground paths, period.
"eliminate any and all instances where MORE THAN ONE GROUND CONNECTION PATH exists...."
eliminate any and all instances where MORE THAN ONE GROUND CONNECTION PATH exists BETWEEN ANY TWO PIECES of equipment.
we're not discussing body to frame bonding here.
"I do not how ever have my equipment double grounded."
if you have a transceiver and an amplifier connected to central point ground and a piece of feedline connected between them you have multiple ground paths, period.
"eliminate any and all instances where MORE THAN ONE GROUND CONNECTION PATH exists...."
eliminate any and all instances where MORE THAN ONE GROUND CONNECTION PATH exists BETWEEN ANY TWO PIECES of equipment.
So, is it going to cause problems if I run positive from radio to battery, negative from radio to firewall, and positive from amp to battery, negative from amp to body behind the seat?
to the original poster, we have a 2006 chevy HHR, with galaxy 959, plugged into the power port (cig lighter), and a 2 x 2879 box doing a little over 300 watts into a wilson 1000 mag mount. We have NO NOISE whatsoever, and have had NO issues with interfering with the car's electronics.
to the original poster, we have a 2006 chevy HHR, with galaxy 959, plugged into the power port (cig lighter), and a 2 x 2879 box doing a little over 300 watts into a wilson 1000 mag mount. We have NO NOISE whatsoever, and have had NO issues with interfering with the car's electronics.
freecell, so, you are saying that anyone who has an amp in their car that has the negative lead connected to the vehicle body, and has a coaxial cable going out to the antenna that is also mounted to the vehicle body has a ground loop?
i dont see any way around this.
please post a solution, i would like to learn more about this.
applying the solution to my specific installation would be very helpful.
thanks.
booty monster,
i placed the SWR meter after the low pass filter.
the amp puts out harmonics, like all cb amps, the antenna is only resonant to the 27mhz signal and therefore the harmonics of the amp cause the SWR to be high.
put in a low pass filter to eliminate the harmonics, and bam, SWR go down.
i make all my own cables, and i am darn good at soldering the ends. been doing it a long time. the cables are good.
thanks for the input.
LC
i dont see any way around this.
please post a solution, i would like to learn more about this.
applying the solution to my specific installation would be very helpful.
thanks.
booty monster,
i placed the SWR meter after the low pass filter.
the amp puts out harmonics, like all cb amps, the antenna is only resonant to the 27mhz signal and therefore the harmonics of the amp cause the SWR to be high.
put in a low pass filter to eliminate the harmonics, and bam, SWR go down.
i make all my own cables, and i am darn good at soldering the ends. been doing it a long time. the cables are good.
thanks for the input.
LC
LC your amp doesn't create harmonics...it amplifies the harmonics created by your radio when you remove the AMC or crank your modulation all the way up. If you had a clean radio, you would not need the filter.
Then the whole vehicle is a ground loop since most things are grounded to the battery or the frame and the battery itself is grounded to the frame. In a vehicle where ground is a common shared thing it would seem a loop would be impossible to avoid.
Your drawing also suggest a base station install. A vehicle is not a base station install, if so where do you suggest I put the grounding rod?
The persons problem is with stray RF. I have my equipment installed with the help of people who have been running heat for a long time and have no problems.
Keep grounds as short as possible.
Ground everything well.
Use braided grounding strap for body and frame grounds.
Keep the amp as far away from other electronics in the vehicle. The trunk or cargo are is the best place.
Use good quality cable 6 gauge or better for amp power and ground.
Your drawing also suggest a base station install. A vehicle is not a base station install, if so where do you suggest I put the grounding rod?
The persons problem is with stray RF. I have my equipment installed with the help of people who have been running heat for a long time and have no problems.
Keep grounds as short as possible.
Ground everything well.
Use braided grounding strap for body and frame grounds.
Keep the amp as far away from other electronics in the vehicle. The trunk or cargo are is the best place.
Use good quality cable 6 gauge or better for amp power and ground.
Multiple grounds do not always cause objectionable ground loops. But they can. Depends on too many other things to say they always will or won't.
To keep one thingy from interfering with another thingy the idea is to isolate those two thingys, don't let them interact. There are quite a few ways of doing that, most are fairly common, and you probably know what they are anyway.
Can you make anything work with anything else? Sure, if you're willing to go to all the work and trouble that it will take. (Sort of why you asked the question, right? To find out what would require the lea$t amount of that 'work' stuff?
) The typical commercially made vehicle is one of those "one size fit's all" thingys. That means that there will always be 'fit' problems with some stuff, no way around that. One fairly good possibility for finding out those 'fit' problems is to ask the manufacturer. They typically go to a lot of trouble to find out what those possible problems are so that they can sell to everybody. It isn't fool-proof by any means, but their solutions will usually give you clues to what problems might be associated with.
The absolute most bestest vehicle I ever found to not have radio problems is sitting in my driveway. If by chance you might be interested, it's for sale. (It does have one or two mechanical problems right now.) Bring lots of money!! Payment in pennies is acceptible (if you can find that many semi-dumps to haul it)...
- 'Doc
You don't want it, believe me.
To keep one thingy from interfering with another thingy the idea is to isolate those two thingys, don't let them interact. There are quite a few ways of doing that, most are fairly common, and you probably know what they are anyway.
Can you make anything work with anything else? Sure, if you're willing to go to all the work and trouble that it will take. (Sort of why you asked the question, right? To find out what would require the lea$t amount of that 'work' stuff?
) The typical commercially made vehicle is one of those "one size fit's all" thingys. That means that there will always be 'fit' problems with some stuff, no way around that. One fairly good possibility for finding out those 'fit' problems is to ask the manufacturer. They typically go to a lot of trouble to find out what those possible problems are so that they can sell to everybody. It isn't fool-proof by any means, but their solutions will usually give you clues to what problems might be associated with.The absolute most bestest vehicle I ever found to not have radio problems is sitting in my driveway. If by chance you might be interested, it's for sale. (It does have one or two mechanical problems right now.) Bring lots of money!! Payment in pennies is acceptible (if you can find that many semi-dumps to haul it)...
- 'Doc
You don't want it, believe me.
keystones#1mudduck,
i dont think that is necessarily true.
a cb type amplifier without a tuned circuit on the output will generate harmonics.
good amps have the low pass filter built in.
most cb type amps have none.
the radio i was testing with was completely stock, AMC intact, modulation pot left in stock position.
even tried the mic gain at 12 o'clock.
thanks for the interest though,
LC
folks, please read all the posts before responding.
we seem to have a bit of a "thread loop" happening.LOL
i dont think that is necessarily true.
a cb type amplifier without a tuned circuit on the output will generate harmonics.
good amps have the low pass filter built in.
most cb type amps have none.
the radio i was testing with was completely stock, AMC intact, modulation pot left in stock position.
even tried the mic gain at 12 o'clock.
thanks for the interest though,
LC
folks, please read all the posts before responding.
we seem to have a bit of a "thread loop" happening.LOL
