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what NPC/RC mod looks like on a scope
- Thread starter Moleculo
- Start date
- Status
I have done this mod before for tests and it did not look like that. That isnt even modulated correctly at all. The NPC mod is to compress the negative peak so it dosnt go past 100% modulaton. I am not knocking this mod or condoning it I am just saying that that does not look right at all. the negative peak is compressed way too much. What doide and resistor combo did you use. I have had to compress the negative peak before but never that much. let me know what you used just for curiosity sake.
Wow, a 5 year old thread that got kind've messed up through two software conversions!
I don't remember what diodes were used, but they were probably the standard 1n4001. I barely remember what happened last week, let alone five years ago! I do remember at the time that Justin was demonstrating the worst case scenario that he had actually seen come into their shop. I think that one was two diodes with two-100ohm resistors in parallel. Audioshockwav posted later in the thread a more typical NPC/RC scope sample.
The scope sample is at the final output of the radio.
I don't remember what diodes were used, but they were probably the standard 1n4001. I barely remember what happened last week, let alone five years ago! I do remember at the time that Justin was demonstrating the worst case scenario that he had actually seen come into their shop. I think that one was two diodes with two-100ohm resistors in parallel. Audioshockwav posted later in the thread a more typical NPC/RC scope sample.
The scope sample is at the final output of the radio.
quote:
If that 'PPE' is what I think it is, Positive Peak Enhancement, it's just the other side of that NPC 'coin', it's still worthless.
ok,if this is a useless mod then why did my general lee go from doing squat on the bird(would key 5 and barely tickle 8-9 average )to doing 18 average from a 3 watt key?
this is on a bird 43 non peak mode into a 50 ohm dummy load ,radio on 13.8
now like i stated befor i can turn the variable power vr up to a 20 watt key and it still went forward to 25 bird.thats alot........
i of course do not run it that way .i am either keying 3 or 5 and swinging 18 average on a bird now .
thats hardly a useless mod ,wouldnt you say??
for comparison i hooked our non modded mirage 88 to the bird in the same fashion.9 watts average again ..10 at best with a whistle into the mic .
i am sure if a modded this in the same way i would see much more on the bird.
this is basically just a resistor/diode mod on the voltage regulator.no volted finals though.
If that 'PPE' is what I think it is, Positive Peak Enhancement, it's just the other side of that NPC 'coin', it's still worthless.
ok,if this is a useless mod then why did my general lee go from doing squat on the bird(would key 5 and barely tickle 8-9 average )to doing 18 average from a 3 watt key?
this is on a bird 43 non peak mode into a 50 ohm dummy load ,radio on 13.8
now like i stated befor i can turn the variable power vr up to a 20 watt key and it still went forward to 25 bird.thats alot........
i of course do not run it that way .i am either keying 3 or 5 and swinging 18 average on a bird now .
thats hardly a useless mod ,wouldnt you say??
for comparison i hooked our non modded mirage 88 to the bird in the same fashion.9 watts average again ..10 at best with a whistle into the mic .
i am sure if a modded this in the same way i would see much more on the bird.
this is basically just a resistor/diode mod on the voltage regulator.no volted finals though.
Oh it upped the output power...but you have a dirty signal now. Congratulations! If that is what you wanted.
The important thing to understand is what all is going on with a mod like this. Yes, you can achieve greater overall power ouput, but there is a price with the audio quality. If the resulting audio quality is something that you and others like, then that's fine by me. One thing about CB is that even though there are rules in place, it's so unenforced and unregulated that people can play with their rigs as much as they want. A lot of people like the way a rig with a "normal" NPC mod sounds on CB. Always remember though, the watt meter alone does not tell you everything that is going on with your signal.
fnkycoldmedina,
If all that you are after is more output power on a meter, then it may be worth it to you. Congratulations!
The problem with that is you may have increased output power, but it was at the expense of quality and efficiency (they are related, you know). 'Ears' are a poor means of judging the 'quality' of a radio signal, just too many variables. Sure, they can tell you if you might like the resulting signal, but what people like is seldom very quantifiable as signal quality/fidelity. Ears can't judge efficiency at all except in extremes.
It boils down to having the proper means of checking things (equipment) and knowing how to use those means to do that checking. Once you achieve the correct settings, leave the silly things alone! One reason why there's no common, front panel control for doing that checking/setting, and why it certainly isn't a bad idea to check it periodically. That 'periodically' doesn't mean every time you turn the radio on, it's more like every couple of years, or when something is obviously 'not right'. As in have the silly thing checks by someone who knows what they are doing and have the equipment to do it with. The likelihood of the average person fitting that description is slightly less than their winning the lottery.
NPC and PPE are gimmicks, pure and simple. do I expect anyone to believe that? No, I don't. Now ask me if I really care.
- 'Doc
If all that you are after is more output power on a meter, then it may be worth it to you. Congratulations!
The problem with that is you may have increased output power, but it was at the expense of quality and efficiency (they are related, you know). 'Ears' are a poor means of judging the 'quality' of a radio signal, just too many variables. Sure, they can tell you if you might like the resulting signal, but what people like is seldom very quantifiable as signal quality/fidelity. Ears can't judge efficiency at all except in extremes.
It boils down to having the proper means of checking things (equipment) and knowing how to use those means to do that checking. Once you achieve the correct settings, leave the silly things alone! One reason why there's no common, front panel control for doing that checking/setting, and why it certainly isn't a bad idea to check it periodically. That 'periodically' doesn't mean every time you turn the radio on, it's more like every couple of years, or when something is obviously 'not right'. As in have the silly thing checks by someone who knows what they are doing and have the equipment to do it with. The likelihood of the average person fitting that description is slightly less than their winning the lottery.
NPC and PPE are gimmicks, pure and simple. do I expect anyone to believe that? No, I don't. Now ask me if I really care.
- 'Doc
ButtFuzz
Anti-BS Advocate ● WO0WOO ● Reverend Doctor
No, don't go and get him...
PLEASE don't go get him.
They don't make chest waders large enough to fit me!
In reading Bob Orban's work over the years, I came to appreciate the theory behind good AM modulation. The FCC requires compliance with modulation limits so Bob designed the quintessential device that boosted modulation while limiting peaks for compliance. The result is extremely loud audio, clean modulation and an undistorted carrier. That device wasn't cheap! He has since, with the use of DSP, taken this to an entirely new level.
I use an industry standard broadcast microphone channel, Symetrix 528E, followed by BBE processing for speech intelligibility followed by a broadcast limiting circuit before the microphone input. The result is loud, clear audio without distortion. Think of Wolfman Jack!
A bit more than a couple of diodes but well worth it.
I use an industry standard broadcast microphone channel, Symetrix 528E, followed by BBE processing for speech intelligibility followed by a broadcast limiting circuit before the microphone input. The result is loud, clear audio without distortion. Think of Wolfman Jack!
A bit more than a couple of diodes but well worth it.
HSA, give us some more details on the equipment you're using (you only mentioned the Symetrix 528E). I'm using the W2IHY stuff, but I'm always up for learning more!
HSA does make a good point...you CAN achieve the type of results that the initial mod is trying to accomplish, but it takes a lot more gear to do it. If you're doing it with a diode/resistor, it's smoke & mirrors.
HSA does make a good point...you CAN achieve the type of results that the initial mod is trying to accomplish, but it takes a lot more gear to do it. If you're doing it with a diode/resistor, it's smoke & mirrors.
To me it sounds like the tone is being choked or pinched!! Ca I add a switch to the mod so it can be togeled?
This only affect AM right not SSB? What does a Top Gun Modulator do then? Or a Compressor?
Love these kinda posts. I have heard my 959 w/the NPC mod. Sounds Raspy or like your speaking next to a paper or plastic bag.
So a TG modulator would be a good investment too?
1-5
This only affect AM right not SSB? What does a Top Gun Modulator do then? Or a Compressor?
Love these kinda posts. I have heard my 959 w/the NPC mod. Sounds Raspy or like your speaking next to a paper or plastic bag.
So a TG modulator would be a good investment too?
1-5
Sure thing.
The Symetrix 528E has D-essing, gating, compression and EQ. It also has a speech intelligibility circuit. The BBE is a broadcast circuit that increases speech intelligibility in a very demonstrable way. I use the model 882. Lastly is a tubed compressor/limiter made by ART. In the Orban world, there are multiple compressors tied to EQ bands with custom limiting to increase the loudness of music which is overkill for voice. That's why they cost so much. The new Orbans use DSP to accomplish this.
The incorporation of DSP is/will be handling alot of these functions at the chip level on board the new radios. Compression/limiting is the key to loudness. I wouldn't be surprised to find a licensed version of the BBE microcode in upcoming radios! It makes a striking difference in voice clarity and really cuts through. BBE is used a lot in live audio for that reason.
In tests measuring what the human ear perceives as loud, the single most important factor is 'intelligibility'. Two sources of the same volume - the one that is more intelligible will be perceived as louder. Take that across a raft of 'noises' and the intelligible signal is heard the loudest and clearest. Interesting stuff...
The Symetrix 528E has D-essing, gating, compression and EQ. It also has a speech intelligibility circuit. The BBE is a broadcast circuit that increases speech intelligibility in a very demonstrable way. I use the model 882. Lastly is a tubed compressor/limiter made by ART. In the Orban world, there are multiple compressors tied to EQ bands with custom limiting to increase the loudness of music which is overkill for voice. That's why they cost so much. The new Orbans use DSP to accomplish this.
The incorporation of DSP is/will be handling alot of these functions at the chip level on board the new radios. Compression/limiting is the key to loudness. I wouldn't be surprised to find a licensed version of the BBE microcode in upcoming radios! It makes a striking difference in voice clarity and really cuts through. BBE is used a lot in live audio for that reason.
In tests measuring what the human ear perceives as loud, the single most important factor is 'intelligibility'. Two sources of the same volume - the one that is more intelligible will be perceived as louder. Take that across a raft of 'noises' and the intelligible signal is heard the loudest and clearest. Interesting stuff...
quote:
Oh it upped the output power...but you have a dirty signal now. Congratulations! If that is what you wanted.
that is what i wanted .
here we go again ....a dirty signal.....on what ?a machine.....we dont talk to machines or scopes we talk to people.if people say it sounds good and my "ears" tell me the same then who cares what it looks like on a scope or a machine.
Oh it upped the output power...but you have a dirty signal now. Congratulations! If that is what you wanted.
that is what i wanted .
here we go again ....a dirty signal.....on what ?a machine.....we dont talk to machines or scopes we talk to people.if people say it sounds good and my "ears" tell me the same then who cares what it looks like on a scope or a machine.
"ok doc ,this being said why are we concerned what a machine says our audio sounds like?we should be concerned what our ears tell us ,not some machine.we hear with our ears ,not machines ."
Because your ears can't tell you what you should know to make corrections, simple as that. They can get you 'close', but that's about it.
---
"this could get beat down to death but you ham guys just cant get over it .i dont see any cb`ers jumping on this bandwagon?"
You won't like my answer to that one. Typically, that's because those "CB"ers, AND/OR hams don't really know what they are talking about. Probably haven't been exposed to how any of this is 'done', whats required or not required to do it right.
---
"if the bird meter is the industry standard and considered the best there is (to a degree)then upping my output power on such a meter is not a bad thing.
Just depends on how you go about it, doesn't it. I'm afraid most watt meters (including Bird) are more an approximation, than fact. None of them can tell if the power going through them is the kind that's wanted, or is the kind that isn't wanted (spurs, harmonics, parasitics, 'splatter', etc.). None of them can tell you the 'whole story', only part of it. The operator is supposed to be able to determine if it's "right" from what he should know about the whole set up and other measurements. ('at's why them engineers make the big bucks!).
---
"ps-everyone says the radio sounds great.i have heard it myself too and i agree."
Good for you! Hope your judgment of 'their' judgment is right.
---
"cb/ham....2 different animals .dont confuse the 2."
I agree that the attitudes are different, but that's it. It's still radio, it all operates the same way. No big mysterious differences between the two. There are differences in what people are willing to accept as 'normal'/'right'. That's just a matter of education, what they know, or are "told". If it starts out, "Everybody knows...", you can pretty well bet that it isn't true, or it isn't telling you enough to make a good judgment.
- 'Doc
Because your ears can't tell you what you should know to make corrections, simple as that. They can get you 'close', but that's about it.
---
"this could get beat down to death but you ham guys just cant get over it .i dont see any cb`ers jumping on this bandwagon?"
You won't like my answer to that one. Typically, that's because those "CB"ers, AND/OR hams don't really know what they are talking about. Probably haven't been exposed to how any of this is 'done', whats required or not required to do it right.
---
"if the bird meter is the industry standard and considered the best there is (to a degree)then upping my output power on such a meter is not a bad thing.
Just depends on how you go about it, doesn't it. I'm afraid most watt meters (including Bird) are more an approximation, than fact. None of them can tell if the power going through them is the kind that's wanted, or is the kind that isn't wanted (spurs, harmonics, parasitics, 'splatter', etc.). None of them can tell you the 'whole story', only part of it. The operator is supposed to be able to determine if it's "right" from what he should know about the whole set up and other measurements. ('at's why them engineers make the big bucks!).
---
"ps-everyone says the radio sounds great.i have heard it myself too and i agree."
Good for you! Hope your judgment of 'their' judgment is right.
---
"cb/ham....2 different animals .dont confuse the 2."
I agree that the attitudes are different, but that's it. It's still radio, it all operates the same way. No big mysterious differences between the two. There are differences in what people are willing to accept as 'normal'/'right'. That's just a matter of education, what they know, or are "told". If it starts out, "Everybody knows...", you can pretty well bet that it isn't true, or it isn't telling you enough to make a good judgment.
- 'Doc
- Status