Antenna Matching With Yaesu 101E

[Rudes]

Hello Guys,
OK, Years back I was in to cb radio and have an Antron 99 antenna. A ham co-worker convinced me to get my ham and I've had my license for some years and have used it every now and then on 2 meters. I got hold of an Yaesu 101E and have it hooked up to the Antron 99 antenna that I had. My question is this; I understand that my antenna is tuned for 11 meters and about having SWR low but when I use my Super Match tuner to achieve low SWR on 15 or 20 meters my receive signal and output power becomes somewhat reduced. Without the tuner I can hear transmissions on other bands very well but with high SWR and it's hard to understand that when using the tuner to lower the SWR that my signal is better than without the tuner or is this just to reduce the chance of burning my finals out? Being that you can pre-tune with the Yaesu is the antenna tuner that critical? Is it possible to use this set-up? I know anyone reading this might say,"why doesn't he just get another antenna"? Being that I had the Antron I thought I would try it out and as I stated it receives fairly well and I can use it on 10 meters. Can someone explain the above and also maybe something else I can use for 15 & 20 meters that will not have me running wires all over the place or some monster 25ft. + antenna shooting in to the sky. My wife and neighbors would not appreciate it...lol. Would appreciate all input...thanks!

 

[VA3ES]

There is a trick to using an antenna tuner with a tube-type rig. The FT101E uses a Pi-Network output circuit. This will conflict and react with the tuning of the tuner. You will essentially be chasing your tail trying to tune the tuner while it's hooked up to the '101E.

Here is the correct procedure to tune up an antenna tuner when using a Pi-Network output rig.

The first thing you will absolutely need is a good dummy load of at least 200W capacity. Tune up the '101E (without tuner) into the dummy load. You have just tuned up it's Pi-Network for a 50 ohm match. Once tuned into the dummy load, don't touch the '101E tuning any further.

Put the tuner in line with the '101E to your antenna. Now, while providing about 25W drive, tune up your tuner into the antenna for a 1:1 match.
What you're doing now, is tuning up the tuner only, having effectively previously isolated the tuner from the rig.

Once tuned up this way, you should see full power to the tuner/antenna combination.

You will need a dummy load and an antenna switch. Place the antenna switch immediately after the '101E. the second port of the switch goes to the dummy load, the first port goes to the tuner/antenna combo.

This should provide full 10M coverage with excellent sensitivity. You can tune 15 and 20 with this arrangemant, but your efficiency will be degraded.

That's it. Good luck.

 

[Beetle]

You could also build a couple dipoles for the ham bands and leave the Antron for CB.

With a "tuner", you will be able to match the feedline/antenna to what the transmitter wants to see, but you will NOT be reducing the mismatch between the feedline and the Antron at all (unless the "tuner" is located right at the feedpoint).

 

[wavrider]

Excellent information on how to use the tuner with the 101.

On other issue, antenna? You would be better off with a dipole, if space is limited think of using a multi band dipole one feed line, no tuner required.

Google is a friend here for how to construct and build a multi band dipole.

That antron will be in negative numbers if measured for efficiency.

 

[VA3ES]

[...] On other issue, antenna? You would be better off with a dipole, if space is limited think of using a multi band dipole one feed line, no tuner required.

The Antron 99 is a half-wave, end fed antenna, identical to a dipole in gain. It is in effect, a dipole, fed at it's end. A vertical is very good for general purpose operation, local or DX. You will work more mobiles with a vertical than with a horizontal antenna. The horizontal antenna is generally good only for band openings (skip) and DX. I run a Hy-Gain Penetrator 500, a .64 wl vertical for general 10M monitoring, and it works so well, that I rarely have to use my beam to make contacts.

For multi-band operation, I'd recommend a 133' foot doublet (dipole), fed with 450 ohm Laddder Line. This will allow operation from 80 through 10, with your tuner. (You will need a 4:1 balun to feed the balanced line.) The only problem with a long antenna at the higher frequencies is poor performance due to extraneous lobes. The extraneous lobes robs the antenna of needed gain and thus you have poor performance at low take-off angles.

An alternative is a multi-band fan dipole, fed with a single 50 ohm coax, no tuner needed.

 

[W5LZ]

Actually, you'd be better off with a 1:1 balun instead of a 4:1. The impedance on all bands will be all over the place, almost never a 4:1 ratio, and at times that ratio of balun will make a multiband antenna even harder to match. That tuner will handle that anyway, so don't worry about anything except going from balanced to unbalanced. A typical tuner has a balun in it anyway, no need for another one.
- 'Doc

 

[VA3ES]

Actually, you'd be better off with a 1:1 balun instead of a 4:1. The impedance on all bands will be all over the place, almost never a 4:1 ratio, and at times that ratio of balun will make a multiband antenna even harder to match. That tuner will handle that anyway, so don't worry about anything except going from balanced to unbalanced. A typical tuner has a balun in it anyway, no need for another one.
- 'Doc

My suggestion was based on operation on 75M where one would need to match the TX's 50 ohms to 450. Yes, on other bands the impedances are all over the map. I'm not familar with the Super Match tuner, and simply made an assumption that it might not have a built-in balun. If the tuner he's using has one already, all the better, though to my knowledge most baluns in tuners are 4:1 ratio.

Now having said all that... if he's running an FT101E, why would he need a tuner anyway? That Pi-Network should match that Antron 99 perfectly. He would only need a balun to match his unbalanced output to a balanced line. And, he'll be OK without a tuner with a fan dipole.

 

[office888]

My suggestion was based on operation on 75M where one would need to match the TX's 50 ohms to 450. Yes, on other bands the impedances are all over the map. I'm not familar with the Super Match tuner, and simply made an assumption that it might not have a built-in balun. If the tuner he's using has one already, all the better, though to my knowledge most baluns in tuners are 4:1 ratio.

Now having said all that... if he's running an FT101E, why would he need a tuner anyway? That Pi-Network should match that Antron 99 perfectly. He would only need a balun to match his unbalanced output to a balanced line. And, he'll be OK without a tuner with a fan dipole.

FT101 will only match 50-75 ohm load. It can correct a slight mismatch, but that's about it.

 

[Beetle]

The Antron 99 is a half-wave, end fed antenna, identical to a dipole in gain.

It may in fact be a half-wave antenna, but that's at ONE frequency, or one narrow RANGE of frequencies, depending on just how the matching network is adjusted. Beyond that narrow range it's no longer half-wave, no longer exactly "end fed", with an impedance and radiation pattern not even its mother could love.

And negative gain relative to a dipole.

 

[Moleculo]

There are quite a few multiband HF verticals that you could mount closer to the ground to keep the overall height lower, since that seems like a concern. Those may work a little better than the A99. A lot people live in big cities where full length 80 meter dipoles just aren't practical, or even possible. If that sounds like something that might be interesting, let us know your constraints and we could probably make a few suggestions.

 

[Rudes]

Thanks for so many replies!! This is it in a nut shell. First I tune in to a dummy load without the tuner. Without going any further I can receive signals on all the bands very well. When I go a step further and then tune my SWR with the Super Match tuner, someone I was receiving at 9db before is now 1db and my output on my power meter goes from 30 watts to 5. I understand that the power is now being wasted as heat with the tuner but why does my receiving signal drop so much. Can I damage the Yaesu without the tuner?

 

[Moleculo]

I understand that the power is now being wasted as heat with the tuner

This is getting off topic, but I had to comment on this one thing. That statement is an old myth that pops up every once in a while. The power that is lost from using a tuner with a non-resonant antenna is usually due to coax loss. There isn't any power wasted "as heat" in the tuner.

Back to the topic and hand now...

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

This is getting off topic, but I had to comment on this one thing. That statement is an old myth that pops up every once in a while. The power that is lost from using a tuner with a non-resonant antenna is usually due to coax loss. There isn't any power wasted "as heat" in the tuner.

Not in all cases. Some tuners will provide a match with different settings of L and C. Only one of those settings is the most efficient at transferring power to the antenna. The power that is not transferred is lost as heat,usually in the coil. If no power was lost in tuners you would not need a large inductor to run high power. IR losses account that loss.

Back to the topic and hand now..

OK

 

[W5LZ]

Sure, there's some power lost in a tuner, but not nearly as much as people think. First you should know how to use that tuner, and then the antenna has to be at least 'reasonable'. You shouldn't expect to be able to load a 10 or 11 meter antenna on 40 meters of below without some losses. Even so, the losses in the tuner won't compare to the losses in the rest of the system. There would be much more loss, and destructive to boot, if that tuner wasn't used in such instances. Trying to make an unreasonable antenna usable by using a tuner means you might make the thing 'workable', which says nothing about how 'well' it will work. You never get something for nothing.
- 'Doc

 

[Rudes]

I'm using the tuner correctly and can acheive 1:1 SWR without a problem. Can someone please explain why my receive is so poor WITH the tuner. As stated, a station I'm receiving at 9db without the tuner will drop to 1 with.

Also, is anyone familiar with the Chameleon V1 antenna? I am looking for a multi-band vertical dipole that is under 25ft. that I can mount to a metal pole.