3cx10000 Ouput Test

[Shockwave]

hey maybe you could take that 50 volt cap out of your pep slug hook the coax to your mouth hook that 50 volt cap to your tongue and measure your modulation peaks of course you know your average meter wont pick it up,but that pep meter should do somersaults

Well, at least you've learned that the average meter ignores the power contained in proper AM modulation. All this time I thought there was no hope.

 

[1342]

Well, at least you've learned that the average meter ignores the power contained in proper AM modulation. All this time I thought there was no hope.

hey you know why your average meter ignores it because its not f---in there maybe you should hook a capacitor up to your head to and amplify your mouth and run threw a meter!

 

[1342]

Well, at least you've learned that the average meter ignores the power contained in proper AM modulation. All this time I thought there was no hope.

get a clue and quit spreading your false and worthless information!

 

[Shockwave]

get a clue and quit spreading your false and worthless information!

Hey 1342, it's not our fault you are interested in a hobby you know nothing about. Give yourself another 30 years and you'll look back at the people who offered you free accurate information and you'll realize what a dumb a$$ you were for thinking you had a clue.

 

[GnG8d]

I know you said it but we all know you're just saying that to sound smart but deep down inside you know you believe,< kinda like santa claus.

Well damnit, there IS a Santa Claus

 

[1342]

Hey 1342, it's not our fault you are interested in a hobby you know nothing about. Give yourself another 30 years and you'll look back at the people who offered you free accurate information and you'll realize what a dumb a$$ you were for thinking you had a clue.

there is a pep movement going on all idiots band together now!

 

[scottdarling1221]

Do you guys have a life other then talking in a forum about power measurement.

 

[WR0220]

I think one of the hardest things for some people to do is admit they have been misinformed. I don't think that Mack and Shockwave could have explained it any simpler than they have. Everything they have stated is fact and can be validated by picking up a book and reading or going to a college/university and getting an education. If you don't 'get it' then I suggest you go back and re-read the thread. If you still don't 'get it' then go back and read it again, and again and again until you comprehend* what they said. Rather than offer facts to support your view you resort to name calling and one line pot shots. It's become quite obvious that you have no intent or desire to learn. It's hard to determine which is more pathetic...your continued trolling or you being used as a tool by those that have misinformed you.

*com·pre·hend
Pronunciation: \ˌkäm-pri-ˈhend, -prē-\
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French comprendre, comprehendre, from Latin comprehendere, from com- + prehendere to grasp — more at get
Date: 14th century

1 : to grasp the nature, significance, or meaning of <unable to comprehend what has happened>
2 : to contain or hold within a total scope, significance, or amount <philosophy's scope comprehends the truth of everything which man may understand — H. O. Taylor>
3 : to include by construction or implication <does not prudence comprehend all the virtues? — Thomas B. Silver>

synonyms see understand, include

 

[AudioShockwav]

Ok, I have been following this thread with interest every day, I am stepping in now to say let`s try to keep emotion out of the Topic.
It can be very educational to allow open discussion about topics that can become heated, let me ask everyone to step back for just a second and think about what you are going to post before you hit the reply button.
Try to find a way to illustrate your point of view, and please refrain from using invaluable words like, stupid, dumb-ass, idiots and so on. Let the information speak for itself.
The forum is here for everyone to learn....and we can all learn something.
WRO220 is on the right track in regards to the thread.
Thank you.

73
Jeff

 

[Shockwave]

Jeff is right. I also admit that when someone tries to convince everyone that red is green it becomes frustrating. The information has a difficult time speaking for itself when someone continuously contradicts reality. Certainly there are topics here that are subjective but then we have clear cases like this that are easily defined and supported by sound electronics theory. It creates the reoccurring problem that you have to fully understand the topic beforehand to know who's right. This puts those that want to learn at a disadvantage of having to sort it out themselves. Exactly why we have people believing some of the nonsense we see.

 

[GnG8d]

What I've gotten out of this thread, right or wrong is .....

• PEP and peak are the same (I posted a link that said otherwise, but it was shot down)
• the carrier measures the same pep or average
• an average modulated signal is generally 20-30% of pep (sometimes higher depending on processing and compression, my stuff runs slightly over 30%)
• carrier x4 will get you in the ballpark of 100% modulation
• a modulated signal of 4x the carrier can swing an average meter backwards (which I don't think is a good thing)
• AM isn't a modulated carrier or SSB wouldn't work because it has no carrier

I think terminology and expression make this more of a hot topic than understanding, because I'm sure what I just laid out as my understanding will have people taking exception.

Now, i'm going to the peanut gallery and sit the rest of this one out op:

 

[Shockwave]

What I've gotten out of this thread, right or wrong is .....

• PEP and peak are the same (I posted a link that said otherwise, but it was shot down)
• the carrier measures the same pep or average
• an average modulated signal is generally 20-30% of pep (sometimes higher depending on processing and compression, my stuff runs slightly over 30%)
• carrier x4 will get you in the ballpark of 100% modulation
• a modulated signal of 4x the carrier can swing an average meter backwards (which I don't think is a good thing)
• AM isn't a modulated carrier or SSB wouldn't work because it has no carrier

I think terminology and expression make this more of a hot topic than understanding, because I'm sure what I just laid out as my understanding will have people taking exception.

Now, i'm going to the peanut gallery and sit the rest of this one out op:

PEP and peak are the same (I posted a link that said otherwise, but it was shot down)
True.
the carrier measures the same pep or average
True.
an average modulated signal is generally 20-30% of pep (sometimes higher depending on processing and compression, my stuff runs slightly over 30%)
True but the compression should only affect the PEP power.
carrier x4 will get you in the ballpark of 100% modulation
True.
a modulated signal of 4x the carrier can swing an average meter backwards (which I don't think is a good thing)
Theoretically when the positive peaks reach 4 times the carrier, the average meter will not fluctuate much with modulation. Because the human voice is not symmetrical it is common to see the meter move up and down slightly.
AM isn't a modulated carrier or SSB wouldn't work because it has no carrier
AM is a modulated signal otherwise it's just a carrier useful for CW. SSB would not work without a carrier however, the carrier is reinserted in the receiver and not at the transmitter to save power and bandwidth.

 

[GnG8d]

It's hard to keep this in the simplest of terms. I'm certain that through the bantering nobody really took any of this person (except slamming Santa Claus ), and it does seem simple, but is never as straight forward as you would think.

an average modulated signal is generally 20-30% of pep (sometimes higher depending on processing and compression, my stuff runs slightly over 30%)
True but the compression should only affect the PEP power.

I'm pretty sure that we agreed earlier that compression will bring up the average power while clipping the peaks giving an audible increase in volume at the receiving station?

AM isn't a modulated carrier or SSB wouldn't work because it has no carrier
AM is a modulated signal otherwise it's just a carrier useful for CW. SSB would not work without a carrier however, the carrier is reinserted in the receiver and not at the transmitter to save power and bandwidth.

Earlier when Mack was talking about a "modulated carrier", I pointed out that it was a modulated signal with a carrier, you disagreed, now you are agreeing, or not, I'm confused?

You see how easy it is to unintentionally twist or misinterpret? Again, I really don't think anybody meant to be misleading or demeaning, at least I wasn't, it's just one of those topics :bored:

 

[GnG8d]

a modulated signal of 4x the carrier can swing an average meter backwards (which I don't think is a good thing)
Theoretically when the positive peaks reach 4 times the carrier, the average meter will not fluctuate much with modulation. Because the human voice is not symmetrical it is common to see the meter move up and down slightly.

Well lets say that you are running a 25w carrier at 100w fully modulated. You think all is well until you buy a Bird and find out that your carrier is swinging backwards to 20w average ....... is that good, bad or acceptable or unacceptable?

Running compression to bring up the average is supposed to be good, so wouldn't swinging backward from a 25w carrier to 20 average be bad? Even though you are still doing 100w forward pep?

It's just not so cut and dried as some would like. As I pointed out earlier, some meters will pick up reflected watts to make pep watts look higher than they actually are, compounding the backward average swing.

I dunno, that buttered popcorn that CaptKW has over there is looking better and better, lol.

 

[Shockwave]

With respect to compression only affecting PEP power, this is where the controversial term "average peak power" came up. Since the increase in power is seen in the average or low modulation points and not in the actual maximum power output level. Compression also limits both the maximum negative and positive peaks equally. If a negative peak limiter were used, it could increase the average power with modulation. Since a compressor is symmetrical there should be little change in average power.

You have to remember that when you modulate an AM carrier you equally add to the carrier power on positive peaks and take away from the carrier on negative peaks. That's why the average meter should not show any "swing". In most cases if the average meter "swings" forward it's because the negative peaks are being driven into RF cutoff. Happens a lot when people turn the carrier down too much. Anytime the average meter is "swinging" backwards is a strong indication the RF power amp does not have enough headroom to reproduce the positive peaks required for that carrier level.

When I look back about the "modulated carrier" topic, it steamed from this comment "I would never admit, with pictures, that you have a different reading avg to pep on a dead carrier ....... dude, you have some messed up sh*t". I was just pointing out that you were not looking at a dead carrier. It was modulated.